my thoughts on how to make tank jobs more engaging

[Quor]

I'm almost inclined to agree with you, were it not for the fact that tanks currently feel more like damage sponges with the ability to poke enemies. I really wish we could get the tank job's APM up so that they would do more damage and reward good gameplay overall, but not so much that they encroach on DPS territory.

From what I've gathered here in the forums, DPS do around 35K dmg while tanks do about 13K, so why cant tanks do like 18K instead? a healthy amount so that we feel more like sturdy powerhouses as we did back in STB, rather than a DPS with a blue icon and a foam bat to match.

I also want to add that I STRONGLY feel that if Square was to buff tank APM, they NEED to return SCH and WHM to their former forms. we cannot have one without the other, for then that would upset the balance. there's no reason why tanks should get rewarded and healers should be ignored.

You cannot judge a job's complexity by it's APM. APM for BLM is very low but playing the job to it's fullest is a very difficult, complex task. Tanks aren't challenging because of their combo or rotational complexity, they're challenging because they're expected to do that stuff while also successfully tanking. The challenge inherent in tanking is about the macro-level engagement in a fight; boss positioning, planning for mechanics and cooldown usage. Aggro management used to be a thing you worried about too, but that was killed when ShB was released (and was on it's deathbed in SB).

A better option would be not to advocate for making tanks even more like a dps than they already are, but rather for a greater focus on tank-centric stuff in fights. Proper mob positioning is a huge one that is often neglected. Half the potential tank difficulty in MM is lost because Varis very politely jumps to the center before most of his mechanics, so say nothing of so many other fights.

I do not understand this constant push by a number of so-called tanks to turn tanks into glorified dps. This excuse of "well, we're all dps anyway" is bunk. Dps is not the end-all be-all for tanks and healers. Dps only becomes important once the tanks and healers have mastered the tanking and healing aspects of a fight. Sure, when those parts are mastered then you focus more on pushing dps, but no fight will ever be cleared successfully if all anyone does is throw out damage. No raid will make it past the first major mechanic in any fight if all the healers do is nuke, or all the tanks do is worry about GCD uptime.

As for cross-role dps comparison, I can't believe this dead horse has come back to life yet again, so I guess I'll have to kill it again. Ahem:

You cannot compare dps between different roles, nor can you compare dps between expansions. The calculations that existed for tracking damage in Stormblood are fundamentally different than they are in Shadowbringers, and once the switch to rDPS is factored in, the actual difference between tanks/dps in ShB and tanks/dps in SB is almost identical. The concept of "feeling" like a tank doesn't do enough damage is a completely delusional one. It's ridiculous to look at an arbitrary number and decide that it's not "enough." All tanks are clearly capable of beating all content in this game, so that means they work perfectly well. Adding X amount of extra dps to them will not change anything about how the tank plays, and serves nothing of value, either to the game as a whole or to job balance. It is literally a number on a third party site of questionable EULA compliance, and basing a sense of "fun" off of such a number is how bad balance decisions are made.

Put another way, you couldn't take 8 dps into any level 80 fight and expect to win. You'd be dead within a minute or so at best, and certainly no later than the 2nd major mechanic - with the possible exception of 8 RDM's, who might be able to zombie rez their way through a lot of a fight only to fail at the dps check because everyone's been cross-rezzing/healing. However, you could take 4 tanks and 4 healers into a fight and beat most end-game content. Probably not E7S or E8S, but with full ilvl 500 stuff I could see E5/6S going down. Ruby and MM would be a cinch. Hell, you could probably 8 tank Ruby and MM right now. And I don't even mean with PLD acting as a ghetto healer; 8 WAR's could keep Nascent Glint up full time on two separate targets. With ToB and Equi that's all the healing you could ever need in Ruby or MM.

But I digress. The point here is that tanks "deal damage" not just by pushing buttons but by enabling others to deal damage as effortlessly as possible. They are the ultimate providers of rDPS, as all dps is predicated upon a tank successfully executing their primary purpose. FFlogs has no metric to track how well a tank has enabled damage via proper boss positioning or mechanic preparation, but everyone who's spent even a little time at the end game knows exactly how much of a difference exists between a good tank and a bad tank. When the difference between an extra Kaeshi on phase 1 Shiva can be measured in fractions of a GCD, having a tank who's on point with positioning is a huge deal. How many thousands of dps have been lost by actual DPS because a tank is a bit off on moving a boss because they just had to get that last GCD in under Delirium/IR/NM/FoF?

[TheRealQuah]

As for cross-role dps comparison, I can't believe this dead horse has come back to life yet again, so I guess I'll have to kill it again. Ahem:

You cannot compare dps between different roles, nor can you compare dps between expansions. The calculations that existed for tracking damage in Stormblood are fundamentally different than they are in Shadowbringers, and once the switch to rDPS is factored in, the actual difference between tanks/dps in ShB and tanks/dps in SB is almost identical. The concept of "feeling" like a tank doesn't do enough damage is a completely delusional one. It's ridiculous to look at an arbitrary number and decide that it's not "enough." All tanks are clearly capable of beating all content in this game, so that means they work perfectly well. Adding X amount of extra dps to them will not change anything about how the tank plays, and serves nothing of value, either to the game as a whole or to job balance. It is literally a number on a third party site of questionable EULA compliance, and basing a sense of "fun" off of such a number is how bad balance decisions are made.

Firstly, tank DPS is not an "arbitrary number", when the endgame fights are designed around DPS checks.
Secondly, you said "all tanks can beat all content, they work perfectly well". Okay, every job in the game can beat all content, so in your context they all work perfectly well. So we never need to make any changes to any job right? Because they're all so perfect.

Why can't you compare DPS between different roles and expansions in a game that is centered around DPS?

Who are you to tell people how to enjoy the game? The whole fun of end game content is to gauge yourself against others and try to become the best. Humans are naturally competitive, take that away and endgame will just become boring. You are just straight up WRONG about tank/DPS damage ratios being similar to SB. Have you ever looked at aDPS, which is the proper comparison you should be looking at. Tanks are now doing 10-15% less damage compared to DPS than they were in SB, and that gap is growing by tier. How is it fun playing as a tank, knowing that your contribution compared to the other players in your team is so paltry, when you have as much or more responsibility.

I don't buy the tanks are tanks and shouldn't do damage argument. Maybe in other games it's true but not in this one. This game is designed around doing as much damage as possible at all times.

[Kabooa]

Firstly, tank DPS is not an "arbitrary number", when the endgame fights are designed around DPS checks.
Secondly, you said "all tanks can beat all content, they work perfectly well". Okay, every job in the game can beat all content, so in your context they all work perfectly well. So we never need to make any changes to any job right? Because they're all so perfect.

I don't buy the tanks are tanks and shouldn't do damage argument. Maybe in other games it's true but not in this one. This game is designed around doing as much damage as possible at all times.

1. DPS Checks are calculated by a percent of what a Role outputs on average at a certain ilvl. While we don't have specifics, the general rule of thumb is if you can clear the dummy, you have more than you need assuming you maintain your uptime when possible.

So when we say "It doesn't matter", it's because each role is a set of glasses, 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 4 dps, and the DPS check is a pitcher. Increasing the baseline of any role means the glasses in question get larger but so does the pitcher, so week 1 and early prog are effectively unchanged.

2. You don't compare damage potential between the different trinity roles because they don't compete with each other.

3. Fun is subjective.

4. Stormblood was a padded mess. Pretending otherwise is disingenuous.

5. Your contribution isn't only damage.

6. No one said they shouldn't do damage. What we say is that the damage they're doing right now is acceptable. They can stand to have a minor damage buff, with more depending on how 5.3's balance changes shake out, but there's also zero reason to leave the healers out of it, especially since it's usually healers who get dumped first.

[shao32]

Believe me when I say I do agree with you that having all 4 tanks play differently is terrible for the veterans, but what I meant to get across in my original post is that the current kit has potential to become better. I'm not saying I prefer this kit, but more like

I doubt Square is gonna go back to STB DRK, since they seem to be obsessed with accessibility. I'm more suggesting this because I feel that they are more likely to tweak current DRK kit than to go back to STB Kit

but trust me i would love nothing more than to get STB DRK back. Even with its imbalanced clunkiness, it was such a beast of a class and gave me a rush everytime i played it, from just dungeon dailies to EX trials. I was even getting gear for savage (something I had never done before) when SHB dropped and crushed my drive to bother getting good.

Why git gud when the only thing i have to do is learn a dance? it's no longer about mastering the class while mastering the dance. at least that's my viewpoint on it.

I think you mean that you agree with me on having all tanks playing the same is bad for veterans perhaps?

idk how long you has been playing but i will told you an anecdote, in ARR bard was more or less right now just more simple of course and then in HW they transform the job in to a casting one, every attack have to been casted at certain level changing complety how the job use to be, it wasn't fun and ppl complain about it, what did SE? it take the entire expansion but in SB they did fix Bard and make it great and fun for those who love his movility and such.

you shouln't give up on something you like just bcs SE change it, they make mistakes and they revert those mistakes if we complain, if you loved SB DRK fight for it, you are paying for a service that have a feacture that use to be great and a lot of fun independent of the balance, it can be fun it that way if we insist on it and nobody will miss current DRK ever, the only think fun about the job right now it's TBN only.

[Liam_Harper]

Tanks aren't challenging because of their combo or rotational complexity, they're challenging because

Come on, tanks are not challenging. They're a joke compared to dps. At least healers admit their role is braindead. Tanks press their bland 1, 2, 3 rotation and give themselves a medal and a pat on the back because they kept the boss still in the right direction and pressed defensive cd's. Even if a lot of players neglect it, you're deluding yourself if you think positioning and planning cd's is advanced rocket science. A class like BLM has twice the micromanagement in a high end fight than any tank does.

People want more damage on tanks (and more depth and min-maxing to that damage) because tanking in itself in this game puts you to sleep. It'd be great if bosses hit harder too and we had tools to survive that, but the ability to push high damage while simultaneously carrying out your role well is what makes the role rewarding and gives it a skill ceiling. You feel you bring more to the fight by mastering your role.

Sure, tanks are "fine" and "viable" but if they're weak, boring and don't have much impact why bother playing one?

[Ultimatecalibur]

Come on, tanks are not challenging. They're a joke compared to dps. At least healers admit their role is braindead. Tanks press their bland 1, 2, 3 rotation and give themselves a medal and a pat on the back because they kept the boss still in the right direction and pressed defensive cd's. Even if a lot of players neglect it, you're deluding yourself if you think positioning and planning cd's is advanced rocket science. A class like BLM has twice the micromanagement in a high end fight than any tank does.

That is more a flaw of StB and ShB high-end fight design. The ARR and HW high-end fights were much more reliant on proper positioning and repositioning. Now moving a boss to another position means that you are likely doing something wrong or did something wrong.

[TheRealQuah]

1. DPS Checks are calculated by a percent of what a Role outputs on average at a certain ilvl. While we don't have specifics, the general rule of thumb is if you can clear the dummy, you have more than you need assuming you maintain your uptime when possible.

So when we say "It doesn't matter", it's because each role is a set of glasses, 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 4 dps, and the DPS check is a pitcher. Increasing the baseline of any role means the glasses in question get larger but so does the pitcher, so week 1 and early prog are effectively unchanged.

2. You don't compare damage potential between the different trinity roles because they don't compete with each other.

3. Fun is subjective.

4. Stormblood was a padded mess. Pretending otherwise is disingenuous.

5. Your contribution isn't only damage.

6. No one said they shouldn't do damage. What we say is that the damage they're doing right now is acceptable. They can stand to have a minor damage buff, with more depending on how 5.3's balance changes shake out, but there's also zero reason to leave the healers out of it, especially since it's usually healers who get dumped first.

There's no point me arguing with you because I know how much you hate facts. I could say the grass is green and you would have some retort.

[Kabooa]

There's no point me arguing with you because I know how much you hate facts. I could say the grass is green and you would have some retort.

Stop masquerading opinions as facts.

[bundythenoob]

I think you mean that you agree with me on having all tanks playing the same is bad for veterans perhaps?

idk how long you has been playing but i will told you an anecdote, in ARR bard was more or less right now just more simple of course and then in HW they transform the job in to a casting one, every attack have to been casted at certain level changing complety how the job use to be, it wasn't fun and ppl complain about it, what did SE? it take the entire expansion but in SB they did fix Bard and make it great and fun for those who love his movility and such.

you shouln't give up on something you like just bcs SE change it, they make mistakes and they revert those mistakes if we complain, if you loved SB DRK fight for it, you are paying for a service that have a feacture that use to be great and a lot of fun independent of the balance, it can be fun it that way if we insist on it and nobody will miss current DRK ever, the only think fun about the job right now it's TBN only.

ah yeah my bad, i meant having all 4 tank jobs play the same was bad for veterans. :P thanks for catching that mistake hehe

On a side note, I've been playing on and off since ARR, and I very well remember the bowmage days when HW first dropped, but had to quit due to money issues. When I came back during STB I was surprised that Square had gone back on their changes and reverted BRD to be fun again, somehow managed to make PLD and SCH more fun, AND they kept most of what made DRK so unique during HW. I used to play this game so much and was having so much fun that I made 2 separate characters just to level different classes and enjoy the story again. I was extremely hyped for SHB, but when it dropped, i was so shocked at the Tank and Healer changes that I unsubbed after beating the story a month after the xpac dropped.

After coming back almost a year later, I really want to believe that Square will listen and revert both DRK and WAR, as well as revert healers back to being skilled, but I have also lost a lot of hope because not much has changed compared to when SHB first dropped, despite all of the complaints and backlash. I really wish the content creators of this game also felt this way, but sadly most of them are a little too positive minded to see these changes as anything but harmful to the long run of the game.

[bundythenoob]

1. DPS Checks are calculated by a percent of what a Role outputs on average at a certain ilvl. While we don't have specifics, the general rule of thumb is if you can clear the dummy, you have more than you need assuming you maintain your uptime when possible.

So when we say "It doesn't matter", it's because each role is a set of glasses, 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 4 dps, and the DPS check is a pitcher. Increasing the baseline of any role means the glasses in question get larger but so does the pitcher, so week 1 and early prog are effectively unchanged.

2. You don't compare damage potential between the different trinity roles because they don't compete with each other.

3. Fun is subjective.

4. Stormblood was a padded mess. Pretending otherwise is disingenuous.

5. Your contribution isn't only damage.

6. No one said they shouldn't do damage. What we say is that the damage they're doing right now is acceptable. They can stand to have a minor damage buff, with more depending on how 5.3's balance changes shake out, but there's also zero reason to leave the healers out of it, especially since it's usually healers who get dumped first.

1. since DPS checks are calculated based on the percent roles output, what would be the harm in simply raising the amount of tank DPS needed to compensate for the changes to their kits that would allow a GOOD tank to output MORE damage? why keep the bar so low? it might "not matter" if ONLY the numbers changed, but that's why the required output from roles would be tweaked as well to compensate for the new potential damage tank jobs would have.

2. we aren't comparing the damage potential between different trinity roles because we are making them compete.
we're comparing damage potential between different trinity roles because we're saying that tanks shouldnt have to be damage sponges that only do 1/3 of the potential damage despite having to work just as hard as their other role counterparts.

3. fun is subjective yes, but what does that have to do with anything? your baseline of "tanks are fun because they are balanced" is definitely different from other tank players, or else why would there be so many threads complaining about tanks not feeling fun anymore?

4. STB was indeed padded, and there was definitely a number of positive changes done in SHB, but that does not excuse the gutting of gameplay variance between the 3 tanks. nobody is pretending that SHB was 100% bad, they just want gameplay variance and complexity to return to roles who were already doing well

5. even if our contribution isnt only damage, the last 6 or so years of this game have shown that DPS is king, and if Square has no intentions of changing their encounter design, then isn't damage going to remain our biggest contributor?

6. we arent asking for more damage in the form of potency bumps. we are asking for our kits to be tweaked so that skill can once again change how much damage a player can dish out. if a new tank is only capable of pushing out the minimum DPS required for clears, why shouldnt a veteran be allowed to push out a substantial amount to show others that they've mastered their job? im also not saying to leave healers out, if anything they deserve the bump if tanks get one too