Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

[Jojoya]

Not sure how this got derailed into a discussion of whether or not everyone should be expected to do wall to wall pulls instead of the original topic but people seem to be forgetting a lot of things, some of which apply both to the original topic and what this discussion has devolved into.

Experience matters. It helps to know what's coming next in the dungeon.

Skill matters. It helps when the tank is using CDs properly, the healer is healing when needed and DPSing when not, the DPS are AoEing when AoE is appropriate and using single target when single target is appropriate. No dungeon is so simple that a total lack of skill can complete it, not even Satasha.

Gear matters. You're going to be hurting if the tank is wearing 180 gear in a dungeon designed for 255. Then again, I'd rather take the DPS wearing 180 and doing a proper rotation over the 255 that does nothing but spam Blizzard.

Ping and FPS matter (loop back to experience, which can help compensate if you know what's coming). Things get rough when the server decides players aren't moving out of the AoEs fast enough even though on their end it looks like they did.

Being focused on what's happening in the dungeon instead of Netflix matters. If you're not paying attention, you won't be ready when the proverbial crap hits the fan and the tank DCs or a DPS pull mobs that groups normally skip.

The good player pays attention to these things in their current group and adjusts accordingly. The ignorant player insists every group is perfect and capable of pulling wall to wall.

[Awha]

End of the day large pulls are not a problem if everyone does their basic function. Healers heal, tanks told aggro, and dps dps.

I do not think it is possible to to wipe during a large pull if a healer spams heals and a tank uses cool downs and the dps aoe even a minimum ilvl.

Most wipes during large pulls happen when either the healer forgets to heal, tank forgets to pop a cool down, or dps forget to aoe. In short they happen during moments of the roles not performing a basic level of competence.

By no means do large pulls require skill.

[Avidria]

End of the day large pulls are not a problem if everyone does their basic function. Healers heal, tanks told aggro, and dps dps.

I do not think it is possible to to wipe during a large pull if a healer spams heals and a tank uses cool downs and the dps aoe even a minimum ilvl.

Most wipes during large pulls happen when either the healer forgets to heal, tank forgets to pop a cool down, or dps forget to aoe. In short they happen during moments of the roles not performing a basic level of competence.

By no means do large pulls require skill.

If you don't consider that basic level of competence is a form of skill, sure. Close to nothing in game requires any skill at all then.

But in random pug dungeons? "Basic competence" isn't as low of a bar as you'd think it should be. In a pool of a thousand players, I'm willing to bet close to half are just plain bad, and a decent amount are going to be just that... decent.

The reality is that *not every group is going to be basically competent.* In fact, it's a total crap shoot on whether half your group is even going to have half a clue what they're doing. I've seen single pulling (literally single pulling, one mob ALONE pulling) tanks, healers that flat do not heal (at all), dps that seemingly flail their arms across their keyboard and hope for the best, and sometimes a combination of the above. I mean... You know that first set of pulls in Bardaam's Mettle? The two packs, then the big angry rat looking dude? Almost every single group I have seen attempt to pull those two packs and that big guy has wiped. Almost every single one. Either because the healer can't keep up, the tank can't keep THEMSELF up, or the dps just isn't good enough to make up for either of those things. Meanwhile me and my friends queueing together can take those three and the next pack and only feel a little spicy.

Frankly I rarely tank in this game in large part because I'm not comfortable making these wall to wall pulls, especially if I don't know the healer. If I get there, it's after a few experimental double pulls to gage whether the healer and dps are actually "basically competent," let alone competent enough to handle a wall to wall pull. Or I queued with a healer I know, where even though I personally hate dealing with a sea of mobs as the tank (especially if I'm low on cooldowns), I at least know the healer knows what they're doing and can most likely keep me alive.

[ern815]

Well, not in relation to the subject but a healer just 'rescued' me from away Engel's Marx Smash. I thought that was pretty awesome. (Even though I got this and was moving to the other side)

[Awha]

Nah I do not view a basic level of competence a skill. Problem is in ffxiv you are called an elitist for pointing when people fail at executing basic function of their role. Sad day when basic competence is considered a skill. No wonder SE seeks to "streamline" everything.

That aside I also never understood the mindset behind using smaller pulls to gauge the skill of the group. Working your way down seems more logical then working your way up. At the very least in this mindset.

Might just be me but when I tank in DF I give every player the benefit of the doubt, I put my trust in the healer and group until they give me a reason to do otherwise. Does this lead to wipes? Tbh not that often, since with the amount of cool downs and sustainability tanks have at the higher levels unless the dps straight up only single targets and the healer refuses to heal at all will a wipe happen if I have all my cool downs during a large pulls. Going ham at the start minimizes the risks of a wipe cause everyone has all their cool downs if things go bad.

Though overall might be a pipe dream but I generally hope for the best when I queue but expect the worst.

[Avidria]

...

It's not a skill in itself, but it is a level of skill that some people very clearly do not have. I've seen more than my share of absolutely astonishingly bad players, and I mean I don't consider myself amazing by any stretch. It's a very low level of skill, but it's also definitely above where some people are - whatever their reasons for that are.

My reason for working up is because I personally find it easier and less stressful to take on a bigger chunk in the second pull than it is to pull huge, wipe, and then have to do the same exact pulls again but slower. Wiping and repeating stuff in random queues is very far from my idea of fun, so starting slow and speeding up makes the run less of a headache for me.

I think it's just a difference in perspective here really. Honestly I go in expecting a pretty average experience, which is generally medium to large pulls, healer dpsing at least somewhat consistently, and both dps using aoe even if not necessarily in an optimized or efficient way. But I also go in fully expecting that I could get tossed into anything from a mediocre slow run to an absolute meme level disaster, because every single queue with a group of randoms is three rolls of the dice and gods only know what you're gonna end up with. In a perfect world, yeah, everyone could handle wall to wall pulls and every dungeon would be a breeze. But reality is very far from that, and the absolute fact is that some people just aren't good, and some people are bad, and some people are bad with a nice helping of lazy on top. C'est la vie.

This isn't exclusive to this game either. Years of dungeons in WoW and Swtor and other MMOs have dumped me into the same absolute grab bag of dungeons - the amazing to the terrible to the amazingly terrible. The difference here is the apparent leaning towards not holding people accountable and not calling people out, and toward dungeon design that doesn't actually require anyone to improve *beyond* basic competence in most cases (or even up to that point at all... which also isn't unique to FF but is still somewhat unfortunate). Coupled with no way to actually assess your own skill without (stealthily) breaking the ToS or asking for help with it. Makes for some fun times.

Anyway I guess to get back on topic somewhat, the point is, that yanking someone with rescue isn't gonna make a bad tank good, doesn't have great odds of making a scared or uncomfortable tank stop being those things, and probably has better odds of just irritating the tank and making a slow run slower (or getting someone kicked). I usually just roll with whatever because my expectations are so low to begin with, but if you're in that much of a hurry, talk to the tank, kick or leave if necessary, or queue up with friends yourself. Probably saves everyone a bit of headache.

[Awha]

In the end I do not think a tank that holds aggro and pops cool downs is a good or bad tank. They are just performing their role so if I recuse a tank into mobs I do not expect them to become a better tank, just expect them to perform their role and hold aggro.

By in large I rarely ever pull for the tank, I just quietly try to vote to remove them and most of the time it passes though I also mostly queue as a tank or healer so I guess that is a privilege the role has.

Since I agree trying to force someone to do something they do not want is a waste of time, though I understand why people try cause basic dungeon and class design for all roles especially healers and tanks feel limited when pulls are small, and to a degree makes the role feel useless. I have not tried it without a healer, but this thread got me thinking so I ran an expert dungeon without a tank. Just 3 dps and a healer and truth be told the pace was quicker then it would have been with a tank doing the same size pulls and as a healer I had something to do outside toss out the occasional heal and dps.

That is my personal issue with small groups I find them boring as both a healer and tank. I get for many people like to stay in their comfort zone and that is cool. I just wish more people were open about their view like yourself. It is nit hard just some people are just awful at video games. I can respect that view, and I can understand why one would rather go from 0 to 60 instead of 60 to 0. I just have a beef when people try to make the claim large pulls are difficult or require skillful play and in depth knowledge of their role and dungeon.

[LolitaBansheeMeru]

tbh ive only used it when i had a chance on someone who was ignoring a mechanic (a dps)

[Yue_Amariyo]

The assumption that everyone can handle a full pull is being made because everyone can handle a full pull. If you can't you need to look into what you're doing wrong before you play again. Can the issue sometimes be someone else? Sure, I'm not blaming the healer if the tank stands in multiple overlapping AoEs or is wearing gear from 15 levels ago but those experiences are so few and far between the time lost by single pulling far outweighs any potential wipes to pulling too big.

The last thing I'll say is if you continue to experience a problem in this game you need to look in a mirror. If every big pull you're in seems to fail the common denominator is you. What are you not doing correctly? Read up, figure stuff out. We are all responsible for our own performance and we owe it to our party members to do our best to achieve expedient completion of all our instances.

My wipes In stone vigil, halatali, and think it was thousand maws of toto-rak was the players I was with where not ready for them, but insisted anyway. Such as being under-geared, not doing aoe, healer relying on cure 1. And a combo of both, most my dungeons have been with people who have been under-geared, so for me it isn't rare.

heck as a healer, and dps Ive ran into tanks who pull a pack or two and rarely use their aoe. Which more often then not, I start getting munched by mobs.

[Shalan]

My wipes In stone vigil, halatali, and think it was thousand maws of toto-rak was the players I was with where not ready for them, but insisted anyway. Such as being under-geared, not doing aoe, healer relying on cure 1. And a combo of both, most my dungeons have been with people who have been under-geared, so for me it isn't rare.

heck as a healer, and dps Ive ran into tanks who pull a pack or two and rarely use their aoe. Which more often then not, I start getting munched by mobs.

Okay, I really don't think anyone here is talking about brand new players or lower level/intro ARR dungeons when we're talking about the standard pull practices. Unless maybe the tank themselves has already cleared 60+ content in which case it should still apply to them.

Looking at your sig and the fact you've only got a PLD at 37 and a WHM at 46 you can largely ignore those people. Yeah, it's probably better if you get used to larger pulls as you get closer to HW content, but it's not necessary for you or other new players. If someone is demanding new players do it in ARR content that's just them being an ass. There's no need to go on a crusade about the new players when no one worth their salt is expecting this of them.

The problem we're having is that people are still pulling small in Expert Roulette content, you know. Max level content. That or they've got multiple level 80s, experience as a tank, etc. and still pull small in lower level content when they have the experience that demonstrates they are well past that introductory stage. It's unacceptable lazy play, and is only serving to waste the time of teammates.

Excessive coddling of players and not holding them up to certain expectations is why we're to seeing so many tanks only pulling small groups, WHMs spamming Cure I in ShB dungeons (SE pls remove Free Cure proc trap), and BLMs that won't use Enochain. No one holds their feet to the fire or are actively derided for doing so to avoid hurting their feelings, and so allowing them to wallow in inadequacy.