Which jobs is at its prime?

[ForteNightshade]

Then I guess my question is: How much of the player share is required for a job to be 'at it's prime'?
33%? 50%?
Is it a mutually exclusive state which means only one job of any role is ever currently 'at it's prime', and that's the most played job?
And if the player share of a job is proportional to it's dps in a raid setting, does that mean 'prime' is proportional to dps output?

Or, is 'at it's prime' a condition that's entirely isolated to the job in question, and does not factor in the situation of any other jobs?
Surely 'at it's prime' relates to the functionality of the job, it's ease of skill use, rotation flow, utility/performance, and job identity, all being adequately fulfilled.

I think everything should be factored. Think of this way, a job could be perfectly designed in its rotation and ease of use but if the other jobs in said role offer more. It's all rendered pointless since people aren't going to care from a balance perspective. Dismissing the meta entirely seems silly when content below EX and Savage are so poorly undertuned, it really doesn't matter. With that said, focusing exclusively on their meta position is equally flawed for the precise reason SpeckledBurd pointed out. Monk was technically strong in 5.05 meta wise, albeit largely because Ninja and Samurai were in such a bad state. Regardless, it's actually gameplay was atrocious.

I guess a better way to put it, at least, in my opinion, it sort of a review where each category weighs into the overhaul average.

[Leidolf]

BLM is in a pretty good spot. Everything dies and you don't have to worry about MP during battle anymore unless you miss a transition...

[reyre]

Counterpoint: Players that are not good enough to enter the endgame are also not good enough to know what "prime" is due to lack of game knowledge and experience. How can a player that struggles to play the game possibly know what would qualify if a job is in its prime or not?

In the end, the question is entirely subjective. You cannot exclude a group of players simply because of your personal opinion of them. Someone saying Monk is in its prime right now is just as valid as someone saying it is not. The same applies to every other job in the game. So no exclusionary statements, eh?

You are kind of wrong there, while you dont need to be the best X job player in the world you should know how the class plays in a variety of content from just leveling to endgame, so the question is clearly not subjective. By the same token you dont ask a medical student if you have any kind of condition do you? you ask someone that at the very least have some degree of knowledge or experience, now you dont ask the worlds foremost expert in the field but a doctor that at least has finished medical school. Or you dont ask some first timer that has just build its first PC how is the landscape of GPUs and what Graphics card is in its prime, they will most likely dont know about that.

And yes i agree that you should not exclude part of the player base because of your opinion of them, however you can exclude them because if you only do one type of content your experience with the class is significantly less and thus carries less weigth than someone who does a variety of other activities. Someone saying that Monk is in their prime hasnt played it at all (and yes i know that you just mentoned MNK as an example so let me make an example of my own), and no i dont mean this as in "oh MNK is bad in x content" Mnk currently feels bad to play in EVERY TYPE OF PVE content (do take notice that i did wrote PvE) the leveleing up is abysmal (even more so than other classes), in the DNG scene you can see the gap between MNK and others, in overoworld is simply hard to maintain and gain GL when you are farming for matterials or just doing Hunts, In mid level raids (ex trials, etc) it falls behind almost everyone, barring BRD, in both utility and DPS, and in high level it suffers the same issues. Now is it impossible to clear content with this class? No, of course not, as a MNK only player i have cleared almost every savage with some ease, that, however, is not to say that MNK is in a good spot; mechanicaly is the only class that punishes the player for using its skills (even if you use them properly), it has a pletora of redundant skills and some that are even in clear clash with other skills, it has party dependency issues that no other class has, its party buff skill afects the rotation of MNK and since its dependant of the party and RNG is way outside the players control, and it demands all that and then some from the player for minimal rewards.

[reyre]

I think everything should be factored. Think of this way, a job could be perfectly designed in its rotation and ease of use but if the other jobs in said role offer more. It's all rendered pointless since people aren't going to care from a balance perspective. Dismissing the meta entirely seems silly when content below EX and Savage are so poorly undertuned, it really doesn't matter. With that said, focusing exclusively on their meta position is equally flawed for the precise reason SpeckledBurd pointed out. Monk was technically strong in 5.05 meta wise, albeit largely because Ninja and Samurai were in such a bad state. Regardless, it's actually gameplay was atrocious.

I guess a better way to put it, at least, in my opinion, it sort of a review where each category weighs into the overhaul average.

This actually is been a question of mine, how does the FF14 dev team balance jobs out?

[VentVanitas]

Someone saying Monk is in its prime right now is just as valid as someone saying it is not.

No. Just... no.

I'd be fine with this sentiment if you had used any other job as an example, but MNK is probably the worst one you could've chosen.

[Mansion]

No end game content in this game of not even played by half of the player, you cannot jugde what is at its prime by nitpicking end game player oppinion only, why? Because that's called meta not prime, there like far more RDM in the wild than you think, the OP could easily ask for meta if he want to hear the meta.

I don't think that's how FFXIV job design works though. Casual content is so... well casual than you can't really only use this data to judge of a job's "prime" or performance.
See Stormblood's White Mage. It was terribly performing compared to AST, who healed better and DPS'ed better and buffed the group. But White Mage was the most popular healer in the playerbase. Because dungeons and normal raids have virtually close to no difficulty / healing and DPS checks that would have showed how WHM could struggle. Casual content can be done by everyone, every job, even people that can't understand a job's rotation won't be punished for it.

Meta is yet another discussion, it has nothing to do with what I personally understand as prime when I think about job mechanics and design. But meta is as much a niche part of endgame content than, say RDM being able to chain raise in one unluchy 24 man raid. It's not relevant to the discussion there. I'd say BLM is in its prime in terms of design and feel, but it is still underperforming compared to SMN. Counter-example : AST is currently the "best healer" on theory, it heals so well and buffs the group. But a majority of people feel the job's gameplay isn't as good as it used to be. But you can't see any of that in casual content.

[reyre]

Feel free to think that if you want. Opinions are subjective, and that's what's being asked in this thread: one's opinion on if a class is in it's "prime" or not. I'm not sure why you're trying to argue otherwise. I wanted to address the quoted passage specifically, though. If you're going to go with that sort of angle, there is maybe 2 people in this thread with opinions worth considering. Kinda inhibits discussion, eh? Luckily, again, the premise is a matter of personal opinion. As unfortunate as it is sometimes, everyone has them.

If a thread is just people presenting their opinions while being unwilling to listen to opinions of others for whatever reason or criteria, there isn't really a point, is there? I was merely presenting the fact that, in this discussion, everyone from the worst players to the best players' opinions are valid.

I dont think you read very well, i never argued against that. Also yes opinions ARE subjective but do not forget that they can also be wrong, those two are not mutually exclusive, i could have the opinion that the sun is a disco ball in the sky, and as you wrote i am free to have that opinion, however, that doesnt mean that said opinion is correct or even valid, people are free to exclude that opinion if i cant argue to prove or defend it and yes you must defend it otherwise dont say your opinion, the first step towards respecting and listening to an opinion is that the person who says that opinion can defend it with arguments not just groundless believe. People are not unwilling to listen, well maybe they are but lets say otherwise for the sake of argument, but you must present an argument if you want your opinion to be taken seriously otherwise...well disco ball in the sky is valid opinion and is it not hypocretical of you to say that you should listen to others opinions when you are unwilling to do so yourself?

That i listen to your opinion doesnt mean that agree with it in fact, i disagree with your opinion because i listen to it and thus made a response, with arguments to back it up not just "opinions are valid", in opposition to SOME (this is important) of the ideas that you presented in your argument. I was merely presenting the fact that experience will create a better and more complete view and will give you more arguments to present your opinion in a better way, i am just baffled that you missed this.

You should really learn how to read and how to hold an argument because if i am free to think what i want then who are you to say anything about my opinion? That seems asinine doesnt it and i am using your words, also i am not talking about skill level at all, if you are going with that sort of angle, eh? Luckily, again, my point is that exeprience will make your opinion better, disregarding what that opinion is, by that same token i never said anything about opinions being worth considering or not, i always wrote that they carry more weight because of experience, so they can articulate better the "why" of their opinions, well not that it matters you clearly do not get the point at all and missed when i said "a variety of content" and what i meant by that, but is okay it starting to seem that you are not reading what i write properly converting this from an argument to a "shouting match" of sorts and i will not lower myself to that.

[ForteNightshade]

This actually is been a question of mine, how does the FF14 dev team balance jobs out?

A good question. And sadly one none of us know. Their balancing decisions seem entirely baffling at times, which leads me to believe they're too broad in their approach. Perhaps the single best example of this misstep is Piercing. They never once accounted for the impact it had on Bard and Machinist despite Bard's overwhelming dominance from 3.4 to 5.0. Likewise, it's clear they put greater stock into things the playerbase doesn't. Verraise and Vercure are seen as staple utility to Red Mage's kit yet you'll be hard pressed to find good Red Mage players who even want to look at either abilities, especially Vercure. Healers are hit by that mentality worse than others since the dev team still seems to believe we focus on healing when even Savage simply doesn't necessitate enough to justify the sheer abundance at each Healer's disposal.

All in all, there exists a very sizable disconnect between how the dev teams believe we play/should play and how we actually do. Part of that can be attributed to prevalence of FFlogs since it's the main reason no one cares about things like Vercure. But you really can't fault the playerbase for being so damage focused when content encourages very little else.

[reyre]

A good question. And sadly one none of us know. Their balancing decisions seem entirely baffling at times, which leads me to believe they're too broad in their approach. Perhaps the single best example of this misstep is Piercing. They never once accounted for the impact it had on Bard and Machinist despite Bard's overwhelming dominance from 3.4 to 5.0. Likewise, it's clear they put greater stock into things the playerbase doesn't. Verraise and Vercure are seen as staple utility to Red Mage's kit yet you'll be hard pressed to find good Red Mage players who even want to look at either abilities, especially Vercure. Healers are hit by that mentality worse than others since the dev team still seems to believe we focus on healing when even Savage simply doesn't necessitate enough to justify the sheer abundance at each Healer's disposal.

All in all, there exists a very sizable disconnect between how the dev teams believe we play/should play and how we actually do. Part of that can be attributed to prevalence of FFlogs since it's the main reason no one cares about things like Vercure. But you really can't fault the playerbase for being so damage focused when content encourages very little else.

Then i have another question, where do the devs get their feedback? Im assuming here that its actually true that they actually take palyer feedback into account but, at the very least from a MNK perspective, it seems that they dont or at the very least they dont seem to take feedback from the official forums too much.

[ForteNightshade]

Then i have another question, where do the devs get their feedback? Im assuming here that its actually true that they actually take palyer feedback into account but, at the very least from a MNK perspective, it seems that they dont or at the very least they dont seem to take feedback from the official forums too much.

Once again, we can only speculate. They do poke around reddit but I tend to think they mostly stick to their own ideas and only listen to feedback if it fits into their existing design philosophy. Monk is a really stand out in this regard because they've clung to its core design for years despite increasingly negative feedback. Meanwhile, I can't recall a single complaint here or on reddit about Astro's cards yet that got such a massive overhaul. So that's what leads me to think they mostly follow their own ideas.