Quote Originally Posted by Lyth View Post
Enmity generation is not the hallmark of tanking. "Wait for three sunders before attacking" is so 2004. You don't make enmity "more difficult" by forcing players to toggle between badly coded stances or by getting their NIN to send oGCD enmity to them.
Again with the straw man. What part of "actually holding threat in an active way" says "getting their NIN to send oGCD enmity to them"? Free aggro dumps/reducers have been a terrible design, but just because FFXIV has done a piss-poor job with enmity for most of its lifetime, does not mean the entire concept of managing threat is bad in general. Saying it's not "a hallmark of tanking" is just plain wrong. Tank is supposed to keep the party safe and make sure they can do their jobs as smoothly as possible - that includes positioning for DPS, reducing healer strain with active mitigation and making sure both don't get smacked by keeping the enemies' attention. It's not that hard to create an engaging system that requires players to balance their hate and damage output in a similar manner to how healers balance their heals and dps(and no, not by "stance dancing" either, tank stance should've just been a "training mode").

Btw if holding aggro was an actual effort, you'd see way more times when dps get smacked when tank isn't doing their job and with that more dps deaths and stuff getting out of position/spinning - making good tanks more apparently valuable beyond just "not dying". Hell, when hate generation is actually a proper mechanic, it's often healers who get taken out, so it would make consequences even more dire.

Why is it an issue that it's really the dps check that does the raid in, if it's still the consequence of the tank's death? Is your attention span so short that you can no longer make the connection there? Also if it's a cleave misfiring, more often than not it will actually wipe the party as they're stacked, or at least take out enough people that the rest will just die shortly after.

For the record - I'm in no way opposed to autos and tank damage taken in general being more dangerous than it is - in fact I'm all for it(although that comment about making DPS afraid of pulling trash in dungeons was laughable). But making it so only for the non-tanks is stupid, when we could just increase boss/add damage itself and both make tank deaths/aggro loss more lethal and make good mitigation more important, not to mention making healers actually heal a bit more. I do however disagree with a single tank death leading to an outright wipe right away - tanks absolutely need more responsibility, but making just one small mistake from either tank or healer an instant, unrecoverable failure is pretty excessive. Now if you have both tanks die they yes - the boss should mercilessly slaughter the raid in most cases.

Either way, if there's no effort required to keep enemies on yourself and survive by managing your mitigation, then no amount of instant wipes will make tank's skill feel impactful - it will still just be the matter of having the tank or not, just like it is now, not of how good the player is at the actual tanking. Yes, the impact can be also created by making positioning meaningful - I've already mentioned it in every post I've made here - but that doesn't mean we shouldn't aim for the other two aspects to be expanded as well.