Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

[Xtrasweettea]

[...]
2) So first tanks get to control how much damage they want to take in pulls and now the Dps too? Healers really are getting the butt end of the stick. As much as it is your job as a dps to dps, it is a healer's job to keep you healthy. A reposition from an aoe regardless if it kills or not, is a shield/heal for that same amount of damage it would've done.
[...]

This is a "yes" and "no" answer. DPS can take the risk and take extra damage if they know how much damage they will take and how much HP they can get back by using their recovery tools and/or how much damage they can prevent using their damage prevention tools.

A good example of this is the final boss in Anamnesis Anyder. When she does her second Seabed Ceremony (the one that creates the two long columns of water that are parallel and run north to south) it would be better for everyone to stay on the North end of the lines and eat one Grip hand, rather than pulling the enemy from one end to the other end. In the short run, everyone will receive damage and get a damage receive up debuff. In the long run, it can reduce the amount of damage on the back end of the fight by preventing the third Seabed Ceremony from happening (and all of the auto attacks the tank will get).

All healers have to do (if you stay North on the second Seabed Ceremony) is to pop your ground AOEs or damage prevention. I do this all the time when I run the dungeon as a healer. It's better to keep attacking and everyone use their oGCD cures and shields versus casts being interrupted to do a mechanic.

Though that is just one example out of many.

[HadesNight]

Let's address these points again. From a gameplay standpoint, Rescue as is functions as a tool to help save teammates from harmful positions. It serves a purpose and it serves it well enough.

Found the rescue abuser lmao...

Alot of your points are valid from a logical gameplay perspective of course.

But this conversation is mostly about the human motivations behind using the skill. It doesn't matter if it's an "invaluable" life saving skill in some instances if people are using as a way to force their gameplay style on someone else.

This conversation is about asking people not to be jerks because it's frustrating. That's not a minor inconvenience in a game that's all about people. MMOs are about the group experience, not the solo experience. So wanting your peers to treat you decently in public content and communicate to you isn't much to ask for.

But to each their own I'm finding. Diabolos isn't on Aether, so at the end of the day. You do you!

[RajNish]

The problem is really not a skill, which can be very useful. The problem is that some people do not want to spend a few seconds asking the tank to make large pulls, preferring to force others to do as they like. You can change the skill, all the skills, if you like, but you will not be able to change these people. There will be those who will abuse and come up with at least one, or even two ways. Therefore, it is a matter of common sense and cooperation.

[ForteNightshade]

I have a question of my own for the tank mains and dabblers here. Do you or do you not think think that Tanks and Tanks alone should be the arbiters of dungeon speed?

Nope. If I'm in a party where three people want to go slow for whatever reason, then I either expect that or leave.

[Goji1639]

Let's address these points again. From a gameplay standpoint, Rescue as is functions as a tool to help save teammates from harmful positions. It serves a purpose and it serves it well enough.

1) Please refer to my quote below.



2) So first tanks get to control how much damage they want to take in pulls and now the Dps too? Healers really are getting the butt end of the stick. As much as it is your job as a dps to dps, it is a healer's job to keep you healthy. A reposition from an aoe regardless if it kills or not, is a shield/heal for that same amount of damage it would've done.

3) Of course DPS mattesr. The fact is, the DPS bar is so low in casual that high DPS is not REQUIRED. And to your point, I would even argue that things will die faster when you're alive or not struck by a Damage down debuff.

This is quickly digressing to personal experiences and personal gameplay so i'll just lastly reiterate what most people have already said. Rescue Abuse is already a reportable offense. Get over your minor inconvenience and move on with your day.

That this differs with personal experience is the point. It's why it should be a toggle. I shouldn't be forced to live with it just because you've experienced more benefit than detriment, and you shouldn't lose it just because I've experienced more detriment.

I don't need healers to rescue me, and when they decide to it hurts my performance. I know what I can stand in.

If you have a compulsive need to forcibly correct people you can request, or demand, people leave the toggle on. If you can't come to an agreement either you can leave or vote kick; that's how it should work. Everyone being forced to do things your way only feels like a good system to you because it only directly benefits you.

[RajNish]

I don't need healers to rescue me, and when they decide to it hurts my performance. I know what I can stand in.

Honestly, you are not talking about Rescue now. One day, Rescue can be very useful for you. What you absolutely do not need is an abusive healer.

Unfortunately, such a person may abuse you in other ways. For example, to keep you at 20-30% HP, even before tank buster or in a phase that involves huge damage. Pull mobs and run forward with them, away from the tank and group, because it's funny. Make you heal yourself and your party members, so all your mana goes to Clemensy instead of the Holy Circle. Or make you mana empty solo heal in 70's/80's raids, being your "green DPS" co-healer.

Alas, you are not safe from this. No one is safe. It’s even sadder that you can’t do anything about it, except to kick them or leave the group. I'm really sorry that you and other players have to meet this behavior, and in most cases, even if you write a report, nothing will change.

[MichiPichi]

This is an interesting point, if it's true and not a gross exaggeration.

No exaggeration on my part, most of the tanks I've encountered on Crystal, like you stated, don't do wall to wall pulls, even 2 packs seems to be out of the norm there. I honestly should start recording my time on Crystal it's crazy how different the playerbase is.


Kinda unrelated, on Light, people seem to communicate more in trials when there's a new person and help them navigate more so than on Aether and Primal. I think there really is a difference in the playerbase (some what) depending on the datacenter.

Rescue pulling because you can't show the common decency to simply ask for something is ridiculous.

I always ask or let them know up front that they can do big pulls. But if the rest of the party is kind of edging ahead and the tank is the only one killing one mob/pack at a time...ehhhh.

[RegularEggs]

Found the rescue abuser lmao...

Alot of your points are valid from a logical gameplay perspective of course.

But this conversation is mostly about the human motivations behind using the skill. It doesn't matter if it's an "invaluable" life saving skill in some instances if people are using as a way to force their gameplay style on someone else.

This conversation is about asking people not to be jerks because it's frustrating. That's not a minor inconvenience in a game that's all about people. MMOs are about the group experience, not the solo experience. So wanting your peers to treat you decently in public content and communicate to you isn't much to ask for.

But to each their own I'm finding. Diabolos isn't on Aether, so at the end of the day. You do you!

I haven't once disagreed on the stance that Rescue Abuse is toxic and you even just agreed with my points so I don't understand your leap of logic as to why I would be labeled a Rescue Abuser. But again, even if i was, guess what? You're free to report me if you happen to see me do it in-game. I'll be happy to receive the consequences of my actions.

That this differs with personal experience is the point. It's why it should be a toggle. I shouldn't be forced to live with it just because you've experienced more benefit than detriment, and you shouldn't lose it just because I've experienced more detriment.

I don't need healers to rescue me, and when they decide to it hurts my performance. I know what I can stand in.

If you have a compulsive need to forcibly correct people you can request, or demand, people leave the toggle on. If you can't come to an agreement either you can leave or vote kick; that's how it should work. Everyone being forced to do things your way only feels like a good system to you because it only directly benefits you.

All your argument as always amounted to is, because it inconvenience me so I want that option that only benefits me. I don't condone the actions of the toxic healers who abuse the feature, but I disagree with the suggestion of the toggle button.

So, say we get the toggle button. Does it come toggle off or on by default? Should the game explain the mechanic to new players and if yes, when? Can you toggle it on mid dungeon, mid-combat? This alone is already a nightmare in the coding scene. Things are never as simple as If __ then __ , especially in a dynamic environment. Say after a lengthy amount of time after the change is implemented. What percentage of players would need to have it toggled on to justify it as a spell that is worth putting on my hotbar, let alone a spell worth having? And if the number does not meet that set amount of percentage, should they just remove the spell?

I don't agree with the toggle method but I'm not opposed to trying. It just seems like a redundant path to take that will inevitably lead to the removal of the spell. And the argument that it's a "choice" is really ridiculous. It's an illusion of choice. If I said, hey turn this feature on for a free +10 crit. Who wouldn't turn on that feature? You're losing nothing from having it enabled while boosting your own gameplay however minimal it is. Even me, as an advocate for Rescue, would turn the feature on.. It's a no-brainer decision.

And while we're at it, let's address something that is inherently worse than Rescue trolls. Let's talk about overworld healing. If you as a lv5 sprout is killing monsters and I a lv80 WHM come and drop a Regen on you, guess what. You can't kill anything for 18s because I will take full contributions of those kills.

Was this out of your control? Yes. Is this griefing? Yes. Should they remove the ability to heal random players in the overworld? Like in every case, there are situations that will necessitate healing other people outside of you party. Case in point, alliance raid.
Do you ever see it happen? Rarely, if not non-existent because: 1) People are not inherently assholes, and 2) its a REPORTABLE OFFENSE. Just because something is being abused by players will ill-intent does not warrant the need to change the way certain things work when the thing it was intended for is working just fine.

Edit: When I was thinking about this, I was thinking about Eureka in particular. And have been corrected on the actual overworld healing, but since 5.3 is coming out soon with the Bozjan Southernfront (Eureka 2.0) my statement still stands.

If the data shows that the bad is outweighing the good, then I'm all for change. But a simple warning is enough to discourage players from griefing others because believe it or not, people don't want to lose the character they worked so hard on and paid $12+ on every month to go to waste. And if they get banned, good riddance. One less toxic player in the community.

[Nedkel]

A tank pulling 1 group at the time is not a tank Lol

[EaMett]

I don't understand what you guys are debating, SS is by far and large better than lustrate on big pulls. You don't need to hold any heals for dungeon bosses, they don't do any damage anyways. And Recitation should pretty much always be used with excog for trash pulls.
In addition, it's not a big deal if the tank steps out of SS, and it's equally not a big deal if he gets pulled back into it. Everyone's getting upset over their flavor of bad play.