Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

[Packetdancer]

First, being a jerk with Rescue is far more intrusive and disruptive than not wanting to be Rescued is. Rescue abuse isn't something I feel you should need a unanimous vote from the group to protect yourself from.

Mm. Fair enough. I agree Rescue is disruptive, and often there's a bit of natural indignation at being Rescued when you thought you had something under control. However, I feel that if the choices not to do given mechanics lead to the party wiping, you could argue those choices are disruptive to everyone else's play. But I also recognize that's wholly subjective opinion and thus not something we'll likely come to an exact agreement on, so it's not going to be a good use of either of our time to go back and forth trying to convince each other that a subjective opinion has the validity of objective fact. 'cause we'd both be wrong.

Also, there's another part of this. Even well intended Rescues can be detrimental. If I know a fight well and am trying to maximize uptime I don't want errant Rescues disturbing my play. That's not something you can kick people to avoid dealing with; it's just a looming annoyance.

I mean, yes, but a LOT of things can be unintentionally detrimental?

For instance, I have had paranoid Paladins heal themselves up with Clemency the moment they start to lose health; I know they're trying to help, but if I'm playing Astrologian I might want to let them drop lower so that I can drop an Essential Dignity on them with higher potency; if they heal up just before I hit ED and cause it to do less healing potency-wise than I planned on, it can end up not healing them to full when it otherwise might have. If they need to be at full for some reason shortly thereafter, I now have to use a SECOND heal to finish topping them off when it would've previously been one. Usually it's just a momentary annoyance, but so is a Rescue when you didn't expect one.

Now, I'm fairly sure a lot of tanks who don't play healers don't realize how the healer might be letting them drop low deliberately because one big heal is a lot more efficient in terms of rotation (and often MP use as well, especially if additional healing in that moment might require the use of—*shudder*—GCD skills), and how healing themselves up can counter-intuitively sometimes make it harder for the healer to heal them. So I never ascribe this to malice.

But it doesn't mean having a chunk of your Essential Dignity's potency stolen away unexpectedly isn't disruptive on some level.

Now, you can argue that a toggle a healer could put on to disable Clemency having any effect during a run would prevent this disruption, and you'd be right. But I think most people would (rightly) point out this is instead hugely disruptive to the tank who now cannot do something they're expecting with an ability in case they do need it. (And also turning off Clemency would be insanity, because when it's used right it can be a lifesaver.)

I'd point out the same is arguably true of a healer who wants to keep the party up and is expecting to be able to rely on Rescue in that moment they need it, especially if that Rescue use is the difference between the party wiping or not.

Granted, the situations on those two abilities differ wildly in various other aspects; Rescue can be misused (even accidentally) far more than Clemency can, and even when Clemency does cause disruption to healing potency... well, "healers adjust". We're used to adapting to disruption. But I don't know that "even using this ability as intended can be disruptive in the wrong situation" is sufficient grounds to give a toggle for other players to turn off one of your abilities.

That said... honestly, despite the opinions I've expressed here, I don't use Rescue often enough that pulling it from the game would hobble my ability to heal or anything. I find I use it maybe once every two or three weeks at most. (Well, unless Susano pops in trial roulette more frequently, and the parties I end up in consistently agree to use the Rescue efficiency tweak for the knockback stack to let melee keep uptime.) I'd definitely miss it in those situations where I do find myself using it, but it wouldn't be the end of the world. After all, as I said earlier, healers adjust.

But I can say some of that adjustment means I probably wouldn't bother even trying to pull sprouts back when they run away with the stack marker, or get people to the pads in LotA, or yoink someone into the curtains if they're running around in a panic trying to figure out how to cleanse Mortal Flame in the Grand Cosmos. There'd be a chance they had Rescue immunity on, and then I'd just be wasting time I could be spending healing up others or doing damage.

Admittedly, it'd be a little less disruptive if you saw it as a status affliction; if I can see whether or not someone has the Rescue immunity on ahead of time because it's in the party list, then hey, I'll just ignore them and continue as always with regards to anyone else. But that comes down to communication... and I think, honestly, that communication is both the simplest solution here, and arguably the right one.

Because it doesn't take a lot just to ask the other person to please not do that if they do it once. "Hey, I actually have a plan on how I handle that mechanic, I get that you've seen folks whiff that, but if I mess up my timing that's on me; please don't use Rescue there." or "FWIW, Clemency actually makes it harder to heal you as an Astro sometimes. If I'm letting you drop a bit lower than you feel comfortable with, let me know and I'll adjust my plans, but if you can hold off on spamming Clemency it's often more efficient for me to do one bigger heal than a lot of smaller ones."

And if that person doesn't listen? Then they're a jerk, and at that point, yeah, you can probably kick them from party with a clear conscience. (And if the party won't kick them, then alternatively you can leave the party with a clear conscience.)

[AnotherPerson]

I'm actually quite curious if SE implements a setting in Duty Finder where rescue is auto-enabled, and can be disabled - but the players who disable rescue has to sit in a different queue from the rest of the players who do have rescue enabled - how many healers would join that queue, and how long will queue times for that kind of queue be?

[Rilifane]

I really don't get this obsession people have with other players asking for a way to toggle off being able to be rescued. Its very simple. I can trust the healers in my static and those who i have communicated a rescue strat with previously to use it only when necessary. PUG healers tend to use it at the first sign of you maybe not deciding to get out of something right when they think you should, whether that something is lethal or not.

Like I'm not even talking about trolling, as i almost never see it used for that purpose. Just like rescuing me out of a mechanic I was prepared to eat with manaward or riddle of earth, or pulling me out of leylines/ position into an Earthly Star explosion when I have full health.

A toggle would allow players to enable or disable rescue depending on the content and their party. If you really are feeling some type of way about if someone dies when they can't be rescued just leave them dead and kick them after.

I think you misunderstood me.
I'm not completely against a toggle. If that's the only way this unneccessary drama ends, so be it. I'm just curious why some people think that the inconvenience of an unneccessary rescue (barring trolling of course) is so much worse than whatever happens when you can't rescue someone but would have saved them/ the party with it. One party gets to chose, the other has to deal with it as it comes.
Right now people can freely chose to use Rescue while others can't do anything against it unless it is
1) used for trolling, which is immediately reportable
2) they asked them to stop and they continued
With a toggle people can chose not to get rescued while others can't chose to Rescue them even if it would be beneficial for them/ the party as a whole.
All I'm saying is: one way or another, some poeple will just have to deal with things while others get to chose.
I don't think there's a perfect solution for it anyway.

[HadesNight]

I'm actually quite curious if SE implements a setting in Duty Finder where rescue is auto-enabled, and can be disabled - but the players who disable rescue has to sit in a different queue from the rest of the players who do have rescue enabled - how many healers would join that queue, and how long will queue times for that kind of queue be?

Another interesting add-on is the cultural implications here too. I dunno if this was talked about in this topic at all, but when I play my main on Gaia, I don't experience any issues in public content. The japanese mindset is around not being a burden on other players, where ours is very different over here.

So even pugging content on JP data centers feels like a much more wholesome, less frustrating experience. It's not perfect of course, but people are more likely to come together and shame someone that is being selfish and self-serving where here, people kinda support it or stay quiet.

So while rescue is annoying, people trolling with it or any other skill that has the potential to be disruptive will probably never go away. It's nice to vent on the OF about it on occasion but the real solution here just seems like communication. Tell people the pulls you want and if they are jerks, report it since our enhanced TOS is actually handing out strikes.

[HadesNight]

It is just rescue, a tool who can be as useful as it can be annoying depending on who is using it...

So many pages for such a small skill...

Peoples really like to argue against each others on trivial things based after their personal feelings when others more interesting or core matters are way more rapidly forgotten as well as the topics talking about them.

I went to read the topics you've posted on in the forums just to understand what might be other good topics to jump to, but I see you admonishing SE for their expacs post heavensward and talking about character races...

So I think it's just all opinion. What's important to you isn't important to others. Things that impact game play in public dungeons gets people riled up. That's the point of the forums, discussion on a wide variety of topics.

[Tigore]

It does seem unfortunate that the "Rescue" pulls to force new tanks are getting to be more common place for you, Goji. I do see a few tanks who still pull small, but I don't press the issue. I simply reserve my big healing cooldowns just in case they are gauging the group and go in big for the next possible time. From what I remember, this was usually the case and the pulls got bigger when they can see we were awake. I only remember a handful of times the whole run is small with nothing said. The rest of the times we get small pulls with the tank not adjusting yet, the other DPS or Healer speaks up to say we can handle it. I have never actually seen Rescue used to force pulls yet when I was DPS.

From my time in the Primal Datacenter, the pulls usually default to being big. As I said from before, the big suicide wall to wall pull in Mt. Gulg was even considered when I was healing as an 80 Scholar. I was still able to do it rotating the cooldown combos Summon Seraph Fairy + Fey Illumination with Dissipation. Sacred Soil, Recitation + Adloquium and Excogitation were used whenever they popped up of course.

[Arillyn]

I have a question of my own for the tank mains and dabblers here. Do you or do you not think think that Tanks and Tanks alone should be the arbiters of dungeon speed?

Nah it's not tanks alone, but it depends on how fast dps can kill things and if the healer is struggling. I'll usually ask the healer if they are up for big pulls. If yes, then I'll pull big. If we wipe, I'll do medium pulls from then on.

[RegularEggs]

1) Removing the skill isn't necessary; we've moved past that. A toggle is perfectly reasonable.

2) Not all AoE's are death; DPS have defensive CDs and heals that they're managing and often would rather eat an AoE than break their rotation. I'd rather not have healers mucking up my plans.

3) Really? Not offering an unsolicited lecture on pulling makes me just as bad as a griefer? Get serious.

Finally, DPS matters everywhere, not just in Savage. Things die faster when I'm not being interrupted by my team.

Let's address these points again. From a gameplay standpoint, Rescue as is functions as a tool to help save teammates from harmful positions. It serves a purpose and it serves it well enough.

1) Please refer to my quote below.

1) Since trolling is such a common occurrence (never have i experienced, but let's just say), who's going to leave the toggle on? Will I as a healer be able to see who I can and cannot rescue. And if 90% hell if 50% of the player base doesn't want to be rescue'd why is it an ability. The skill is essentially worse than useless, it's a dead skill.

2) Apparently being moved against your will is the only thing you see Rescue as. As stated before, it has a lot of other unique uses that warrant the skill. but if you want to dumb it down to that, the answer would still be yes. The ability to potentially save someone or the team from dying is invaluable.

Now, do I think we absolutely need Rescue in the game? Maybe not. We'll live without it. So as I said before, you either keep it, or discard it altogether.

2) So first tanks get to control how much damage they want to take in pulls and now the Dps too? Healers really are getting the butt end of the stick. As much as it is your job as a dps to dps, it is a healer's job to keep you healthy. A reposition from an aoe regardless if it kills or not, is a shield/heal for that same amount of damage it would've done.

3) Of course DPS mattesr. The fact is, the DPS bar is so low in casual that high DPS is not REQUIRED. And to your point, I would even argue that things will die faster when you're alive or not struck by a Damage down debuff.

This is quickly digressing to personal experiences and personal gameplay so i'll just lastly reiterate what most people have already said. Rescue Abuse is already a reportable offense. Get over your minor inconvenience and move on with your day.

[Xtrasweettea]

I have a question of my own for the tank mains and dabblers here. Do you or do you not think think that Tanks and Tanks alone should be the arbiters of dungeon speed?

No.

If anything, the real arbiters of dungeon speed fall on the DPS. Tanks and Healers are custodians of dungeon speed. Meaning that Tanks and Healers do everything they can to allow the DPS to be able to perform their jobs to their fullest.

Of course, the wording here is "allow." There's only so much a Tank and Healer can do on speed, thanks to SE gutting damage from both roles. DPS can do more than 60% of the groups damage if they choose to.

[hynaku]

It's a skill that needs changed to where if don't accept it won't activate. I have had healers cause me to die from it a lot. They pull you right into attack and get you killed. I think we did just fine with out it before they added it.