Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

[TyrTry]

I have a question of my own for the tank mains and dabblers here. Do you or do you not think think that Tanks and Tanks alone should be the arbiters of dungeon speed?

Hell no.

/char

[Packetdancer]

If someone dies they die. If the entire group doesn't want to deal with the possibility of someone dying that could've been Rescued they can vote kick people who refuse to enable rescue. I'm honestly fine with that.

I mean... it can be more than "if someone dies they die". There are a lot of mechanics out there where if you don't have a certain number of players positioned right, other people die to a mechanic, or the entire party does, in which case the group is dealing with "If someone dies, I die." And I feel like in that case, just sitting and watching it happen is potentially not playing my role as a healer.

I've had a scenario running Alliance Roulette a couple of weeks ago where I got Labyrinth of the Ancients and we were one short on the pad with the second cast of Ancient Flare just short of finishing, because DPS had gotten greedy and were trying to push enough to finish the fight before the cast was done. (As frequently happens.) One of the DPS who got greedy was sprinting to the pad... and while they were the closest of the set, it was clear even they would not make it in time. Without one more on the pad, the barrier doesn't come up and the entire alliance wipes. I pulled them the rest of the way with Rescue, and the barrier went up just before the Ancient Flare cast finished.

Obviously, in that case, they didn't mind; I just pulled them the rest of the way to where they were already clearly trying to get. But imagine now that I just decided "oh, well, it would be rude to Rescue them without asking first" and just stood there watching while the entire party wiped when I could've prevented it; as I said above, I feel someone could make a solid argument that I had not played my role as healer—i.e., "keep the party alive"—properly or well there.

I can definitely see people turning the option on for one duty, forgetting they have it on, and Shirk immunity causing a failure to tank-swap in a trial roulette or a wipe to Rescue immunity during mechanics like Ancient Flare in another duty later. And I wish I couldn't, but I can see people who are impatient or annoyed by a wipe in such a scenario immediately initiating a vote-kick against the person who caused it by preventing a Shirk or Rescue through that setting. Especially if the general community mindset is "if you use this option and we don't like it, we're supposed to kick you".

This isn't necessarily an argument against an option to disable Rescue on themselves—or, for that matter, an option to make yourself similarly immune to Shirk—but more I suppose I'm just not sure "if you don't like people using Rescue/Shirk immunity, just kick them" is fundamentally different than "if you don't like people being jerks with Rescue/Shirk, just kick them", just with the added complication of a setting people could accidentally leave on, piss off folks with, and get kicked for.

(It definitely is an argument on my part against removing Rescue and/or Shirk entirely just because they can be misused for trolling.)

[Vidu]

I have a question of my own for the tank mains and dabblers here. Do you or do you not think think that Tanks and Tanks alone should be the arbiters of dungeon speed?

Without reading this whole thread and just taking this question "as is" without to much of the context of said thread (and as someone whos been a paladin main since 2.0) my short answer is: No.

The longer answer is that its obviously up to the whole group, their gear, skills and to a degree wishes that determines the speed and style of a dungeon run. You can pull as much as you want as a tank - if the DPS cant kill stuff fast enough, if the healer cant keep up, it simply wont work. On the other hand mass-pulling really, really isnt difficult - certainly not more difficult than single pulls, at least not as long as the whole group plays along (aka: dps not going all out on a single mob while you're still pulling or the healer spamming heals on you during that phase). So if the group prefers masspulls and can handle them, thats the way to go.

In a... different - I dont want to say "better" - world, we'd have a conversation at the start of each run to discuss how the group is going to approach this dungeon. Since dungeons are pretty easy and quick and dont require much strategy, that rarely happens, though. I know that some people will speak up at the beginning, asking what pull-size the group would prefer, but it doesnt happen all the time. (I'm often enough in parties where people dont even say "Hello")
So, without having an agreement upfront, you kinda need someone making the calls - and to me a tank is in a prime position here. A good tank (in my book) will default to mass-pulls and adjust if they notice the need to. That can either be after a fail or struggle with a masspull or even right at the start, for example if the tank notices that people have bad gear, are new to the dungeon or that you're in a dungeon where no one (except for the tank) has any AoE.

At the end of the day the speed of the dungeon depends on the groups ability and prefered playstyle. If nothing is discussed, its the tank job to make the initial call and everyone elses job to play along OR speak up. Ideally with words in a polite manner. Running dungeons is a team effort after all, so we should all be team players - tanks might take on the role of team leaders, but a good leader isnt someone who forces their own agenda onto others, but someone who considers the strengths and needs of his fellow team mates.
A tank can set the pace of the run. The team needs to confirm that its a good pace.

[Mavrias]

The reason why this will not work is because, what is the point of the toggle? If other players can deliberately disable a spell on my hotbar, then what's the point of having the spell altogether. They might as well remove the spell at that point.

I think a general consensus is that spell has it's uses. Either keep it or remove it all together.

There could be other people in the party who have it enabled? And again the point of the toggle is that there are niche cases and strategies where rescue is extremely useful, primarily in savage and ultimate with statics.

Outside of those cases, some players would rather not be rescued. It shouldn't be a difficult concept to understand.

[Goji1639]

This isn't necessarily an argument against an option to disable Rescue on themselves—or, for that matter, an option to make yourself similarly immune to Shirk—but more I suppose I'm just not sure "if you don't like people using Rescue/Shirk immunity, just kick them" is fundamentally different than "if you don't like people being jerks with Rescue/Shirk, just kick them", just with the added complication of a setting people could accidentally leave on, piss off folks with, and get kicked for.

First, being a jerk with Rescue is far more intrusive and disruptive than not wanting to be Rescued is. Rescue abuse isn't something I feel you should need a unanimous vote from the group to protect yourself from.

Also, there's another part of this. Even well intended Rescues can be detrimental. If I know a fight well and am trying to maximize uptime I don't want errant Rescues disturbing my play. That's not something you can kick people to avoid dealing with; it's just a looming annoyance.

[Mavrias]

I have a question of my own for the tank mains and dabblers here. Do you or do you not think think that Tanks and Tanks alone should be the arbiters of dungeon speed?

Nah. My default speed is wall to wall, but if dps refuse to AoE then it can't be done and the group has to go slower.. Granted in most of those cases I vote dismiss or leave but still.

[dangadget]

I have a question of my own for the tank mains and dabblers here. Do you or do you not think think that Tanks and Tanks alone should be the arbiters of dungeon speed?

Of course not.
Group content means cooperation.
If you want to go faster and can handle it, then be polite about it and say something
If things still aren't going at a pace that you desire, then either kick, or leave, but it's most definitely not ok to drag the tank around with Rescue against their will.

[RegularEggs]

It's someone yanking you away from your finished pull because they've decided they're going to tell you when you're finished pulling. This is done instead of simply asking the tank if he would make larger pulls. If you don't find this to be rude then there's probably not a way I could explain it that would change your mind.

I dislike Rescue in general because it completely interrupts and re-positions you. Honestly, I can't think of many things that could happen to you mid fight in this game that would be more off-putting and annoying.

As for what I did to help the new tanks; I generally did nothing. If they had spoken up against it I would've absolutely backed them up, but as a general rule I don't start conflicts on other peoples behalf. The new tank is already probably nervous and/or embarrassed as it is; 2 people arguing about how "bad" he is won't make him feel better.

1) Sorry, if I worded that badly. I'm not exact great at phrasing my questions correctly. I can agree that it is a rude gesture, but rude enough to warrant a post asking to remove the skill, i don't think so. Even you've agreed that there have been some good uses that comes of it. Simplifying the spell to this one gesture is ridiculous.

2) Would you prefer having your combo delayed but alive, or dead simply because you didn't dodge something in time. At least in the former example, it is recoverable. Maybe frustrating to you, but you would've only been delayed by a GCD or two compared to death.
But in the sense of trash pulling, you're aoeing. There are no positional, and there are no death defining aoes that can kill you in dungeons. But again I have to state, it's a rude gesture indeed. Does it warrant the complete removal the spell, absolutely not.

3) Thank you, you have just proven that you're no better than the healers you are complaining about. The lack of communication there means you have have no intention of bettering the community you belittle.

I know that some people take offense to the smallest things, but a simple gesture of "Hey, I main tank. If you want I can give you some pointers to help with bigger pulls." or something as unobtrusive to lend a helping hand can go a long way towards avoiding these exact scenarios you're complaining about. Being new does not inherently make you bad. It's being unwilling to learn. But then again, you already proven that you don't care.

You would still have the ability for the people who actually WANT you to Rescue them... Does the ability only have meaning if you can force it on people against their will?

1) Since trolling is such a common occurrence (never have i experienced, but let's just say), who's going to leave the toggle on? Will I as a healer be able to see who I can and cannot rescue. And if 90% hell if 50% of the player base doesn't want to be rescue'd why is it an ability. The skill is essentially worse than useless, it's a dead skill.

2) Apparently being moved against your will is the only thing you see Rescue as. As stated before, it has a lot of other unique uses that warrant the skill. but if you want to dumb it down to that, the answer would still be yes. The ability to potentially save someone or the team from dying is invaluable.

Now, do I think we absolutely need Rescue in the game? Maybe not. We'll live without it. So as I said before, you either keep it, or discard it altogether.

First, being a jerk with Rescue is far more intrusive and disruptive than not wanting to be Rescued is. Rescue abuse isn't something I feel you should need a unanimous vote from the group to protect yourself from.

Also, there's another part of this. Even well intended Rescues can be detrimental. If I know a fight well and am trying to maximize uptime I don't want errant Rescues disturbing my play. That's not something you can kick people to avoid dealing with; it's just a looming annoyance.

Here is where I have to disagree completely. In savage content where DPS matters, people know DPS are maximizing uptime. I have never seen any healers of savage level rescue anyone out of sheer rudeness. It's always a last second resort where they feel like you definitely weren't going to make it, or couldn't decide whether to rescue you or not and you end up dying. I can't speak for all casual content entirely but generally they are not that difficult so losing a few GCDs is not going to kill you. Report the player for griefing, and move on with your day.

[HadesNight]

I have a question of my own for the tank mains and dabblers here. Do you or do you not think think that Tanks and Tanks alone should be the arbiters of dungeon speed?

Nope, it's a decision between the Tank and the Healer and the DPS are along for the ride. Hence why I'll always be a proponent of asking the healer how they want their pulls when I'm tanking, or encouraging a tank to double pull at the START of a dungeon when I'm in public content.

inb4 DPS get mad at me: i'm sorry lol, this is just my opinion. It might not be right but I definitely don't even bother to ask you how you want the dungeon. You don't keep me alive with live saving heals! xD

[Goji1639]

@RegularEggs

1) Removing the skill isn't necessary; we've moved past that. A toggle is perfectly reasonable.

2) Not all AoE's are death; DPS have defensive CDs and heals that they're managing and often would rather eat an AoE than break their rotation. I'd rather not have healers mucking up my plans.

3) Really? Not offering an unsolicited lecture on pulling makes me just as bad as a griefer? Get serious.

Finally, DPS matters everywhere, not just in Savage. Things die faster when I'm not being interrupted by my team.