Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

[EnigmaticDodo]

the move has its uses. I like when healers pull me along as a group dies. Speeds things up.

[Quintessa]

SE should just make sprint 20 seconds, or give us jetpacks. Not manufactured by Ironworks either, but by the Kobolds, that way it's guaranteed to make for some funny wabbly flying.

[Nanchi]

The absolute entitlement some people in this thread have is incredible.

Rescuing people out of harm or into your healing bubble/shield/ stack (etc)? Perfect, lovely. Keep doing you.

Rescuing the tank into another mob pack, dictating how another player should play? Bad. Stop that crap.

Who are you to take away control from another player just because /you/ want to pull big? If you're a healer and you want the tank to pull more just type it in chat, that way you give the player at least the chance to reply and tell you a "okay gotcha!" or another reason why they don't feel 100% comfortable doing that yet. But imposing your playstyle on the tank is not okay. I find it alarming how many of you find that behavior totally acceptable. "Rescuing into mob packs is more efficient than typing in chat. " You're not playing with npcs my dude. There are people sitting on the other end, a bit of communication can't be too much to ask in an mmo right.

Anyway rescue is a beneficial skill , there is however no denying that it can be used for not intended purposes, for example taking away control from a player who doesn't need any rescue.

[Fynlar]

And you completely missed the context of that message

Uhh, no I didn't? I think you completely missed it, though

The person I was responding to was saying "try being a healer yourself, then you can see that Rescue isn't as bad as you're proclaiming it to be"

I was here to say, yes, it still is.

[Elkanah]

I don't think I've seen Shirk used to harass people. Most of us have seen Rescue used for that. It doesn't need to be in the text; the way it promotes harassment is obvious. You can literally drag another player and place them anywhere you want them. Honestly, how did they think giving the community that ability would play out?

Apparently some of ya'll don't remember when NIN had Smoke Screen and Shadewalker (pre 3.1). The potency was so good that you could take 80% of the hate from the tank, and place it on any 1 member in the party, which damn near made the Enmity generation go up when you did it multiple times in a fight (120-180s). We always used to laugh and do these kinds of things with friends or FC members for shites and giggles back in the day. But it was mostly when we weren't already not being serious anyways. For endgame content or anything else, this was obviously only used on the tanks or whoever the enmity was generating from (dps usually) and apply directly to the tanks in DPS stance for savage raids.

Tanks had notorious threads on a variety of forums for using Shirk on members in the party to push hate on DPS or healers who were terribad (being jackholes at that point). I've done it when people pissed me off and did things opposite the group (usually people who were already being dicks in the first place till they left the instance or we vote kicked them). Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it wasn't ever done before you noticed it. You also probably hadn't been playing when those threads were up on the OF, reddit, 4chan, tumblr, facebook groups, twitter, among a lot of other places.

[Packetdancer]

I mean, I've seen scenarios where tanks will troll people by getting aggro on everything, dragging a giant mob together... then turn off tank stance and let the mobs eat the healer and/or DPS for laughs. Not often, but I haven't seen Rescue used for trolling that often either. (To be fair, like 60% of the time I'm playing as a healer in any given duty I'm in, which means in 4-man content I'm the only one who could do Rescue shenanigans. So I grant that might skew my data set somewhat.)

But I don't know that I think that those instances of tank stance abuse mean SquareEnix should just force tank stance always on; being able to turn it on and off is super useful in high-end content, after all.

I don't use Rescue that often as WHM, though it can be extremely useful in certain situations; I can count the number of times I use it in the average month on one hand—often without even using half the fingers on that hand—unless I somehow get Susano repeatedly and people agree in party chat pre-pull that yes, the Rescue optimization trick for the stack seems like a good idea. So while I like having it and find it extremely useful (in an admittedly rare number of very specific instances), if we were to lose Rescue it wouldn't be the end of the world by any means.

Moreover, I feel like a lot of the recommendations for replacements of Rescue—like a 'temporary invulnerability' bubble—would be far harder to balance. If the bubble didn't prevent Doom type mechanics (where when the debuff isn't cleansed and finishes counting down, the afflicted individual is instakilled), then it wouldn't save people where using Rescue to yank them onto the floor spot that will cleanse it can. Similarly, an invulnerability bubble wouldn't save someone standing in the wrong spot in any of the many bits of content where they can fall off the edge, where Rescue can help you pull them to safety where they might not be otherwise able to sprint in time. (Falling off the boat in Leviathan Extreme, sliding off the side in Sophia's scale mechanic, getting blown through a fence gap during Ravana, etc.)

If the proposed temporary invulnerability did prevent death in those scenarios—prevented you from getting knocked back off an edge, prevented any instakill Doom-style mechanic—I feel like it would immediately become an ability far too powerful and one that people would find spots to figure into raid strategies. It's the sort of ability that would force SquareEnix to rebalance so many high-end duties. (Can any of us say we wouldn't start expecting healers to drop that Super Invulnerability on someone during certain mechanics in endgame raiding, since it would allow DPS uptime to be preserved?)

That's part of why I think "it gets abused for trolling, so we should remove it" isn't necessarily the right approach. Both because there'd need to be a replacement for it, and a lot of those replacements would introduce massive balance implications, and because it's not the only ability which can be abused in this game. (Granted, most require slightly more creativity than people abusing Rescue need have—see tank stance shenanigans above—but still.)

[Gemina]

Uhh, no I didn't? I think you completely missed it, though

The person I was responding to was saying "try being a healer yourself, then you can see that Rescue isn't as bad as you're proclaiming it to be"

I was here to say, yes, it still is.

If you're referring to me and my OP, then you are definitely missing points from more posters than just one. I never even said that. What I said is that unless you play a healer, it is difficult to get the full perspective of how Rescue is and can be used. This can be said for any job though and the abilities they use, so there really is no disputing this.

In your case, considering that you have healer mains all over this thread stating how the ability has been useful to them, added to the fact that you've leveled all three healers to max and have found next to no use for the skill says more about you than the ability itself.

[Mavrias]

Honestly I'm all for a toggle that allows you to be unaffected by rescue but on the flip side have you tried actually putting on your big kid pants and actually doing large pulls? A level 80 Dark Knight afraid of doing wall to walls? Seriously? Heck, even in low level ARR dungeons there's no reason to do single pulls.

Healers can't rescue you into more mobs if you're already ahead of them.

You're a high level tank. Please play like one.

[EaMett]

If something happens often enough then there is clearly an issue. Even if the design has a useful intended purpose there are probably better ways to go about it. You could make a "temporary invincible" bubble or the like instead if you really wanted something that does that basic effect without having the negative side effects Rescue currently has.

That rescue is used mostly to troll is as true (read incorrect) as the claims of mentors being all bad. It's all following an anecdotal, oftentimes heavily survivor biased pattern. There is no issue here, someone every now and then gets pulled in or out of stuff with rescue and comes to the forums to complain. There are some 270k active characters in NA, someone is bound to come cry on the forums about some jerk mistreating them with the skill while completely ignoring all the other runs where the tool was used properly and he/she never noticed.
We can have fun listing skills that are used to troll and harass others: any out of combat spam aoe (holy, unleash, etc). Shirk is a big one. Fluid aura use to be big in it's day. Superboilide is used to piss the healer off sometimes. And I'm sure many more I can't think of right now. Not only that but why even bother with skills when one can easily bait aoes on top of leylines. At this point it should be clear that fixing the skills isn't the right approach.

Honestly I'm all for a toggle that allows you to be unaffected by rescue but on the flip side have you tried actually putting on your big kid pants and actually doing large pulls? A level 80 Dark Knight afraid of doing wall to walls? Seriously? Heck, even in low level ARR dungeons there's no reason to do single pulls.

Healers can't rescue you into more mobs if you're already ahead of them.

You're a high level tank. Please play like one.

Can healers get a toggle to not raise people who could've been rescued but toggled it off?

[Nanchi]

Can healers get a toggle to not raise people who could've been rescued but toggled it off?

Then we get back to our original predicament: Can enmity just toggle off for tanks when they get pulled into the next trash mobs against their will by some impatient healer?

Also for how much this forum loves to preach how 80% of the playerbase can't even play their classes correctly, it surely seems hypocritical to expect tanks to play "high level" we sadly can't have both worlds even tho I wish we have the later more often for all types of players.