SMN Why don't we hear about egi glamours anymore?

[HeulGDarian]

There is only one thing we massively disagree on. and thats that summoner is as convulted as a samurai with a shield or a blm that is in fact using bombs. The system is still a magic system even if he is using aether lke someone in reallife would use circuit it doesnt make it be any less than a man with a book drawing circles for stuff to appear out of nowhere, just because it bears resemblance it doesnt mean it isnt still a magic system. This is the most subjective thing ever and something you cant judge a job upon, to prove my point every single person i met has a different idea on what is wrong with summoner and how to fix it. ive heard till now:
remove egis
rework egis
make egis stance
remove dots
make dots elemental
bring back dots
bring back heavensward trance
rework fester painflare
remove fester painflare
make fester painflare a summon
make fester painflare elemental
fix demis
rework to only demis
give more demis
dont give more demis
remove aetherflow
bring back aetherflow
change aetherflow
remove ruins
rework ruins
make it like yuna
make it yuna nt
make it like ff7 to equip summons
add every summon
Every single person has its own ideas on what summoner needs, and so they fight and post that they are right and that others are wrong and that they are correct and that we should remove that group into another job and that they only say that cause identity crisis and and and and..... EXCUSES in the end everyone has different reasons to like this smn because summoner is a succesfull and popular job. its not without fault but it most definitely doesnt suffer from an identity crisis everyone just likes a different part or parts of it. and yes i understand that you can say that all this infighting does mean it indeed suffers from identity crisis. and my reply to this is how do you pick a group on it. sure you can categorise them and then see who is the m... just pick demis i can hear it from a mile away. So lets say that they at some point they make a bigger better summon even more fun to use than a demi and bahamut and lets say pheonix shows power creep (bahamut already shows powercreep by pheonix) do we then start this again?
I am tired of arguing in the forums. because the above thing has no true answer. Also something i need to say because this connects to the latest rework rework fiesta. MCH didnt get fixed after the rework, people still have the same issues all it did was to make it more popular to people who like jobs on the easier side.


To me this job did something smn needed for a long time it expanded the possible things a smn can do. Its a change and some peope adapt better to it than others. The reason im saying it needed them was because in 3 and 5 where summoning was alone it was outclassed by every other mage. It had some summons but besides the unique summons the non elemental ones buffers etc they were mediocre compared to comet meteor dualcast flare heck even holy. 6 had the best summon roster cause of all the buffs fenrir springs to mind. What im trying to get to is that the slowburner isnt cause of the summoner basic spells its cause the egis arent flashy or exciting to use. The egis need to be different than the demi gameplay and be weaker thats the only requirement oh and enkindle stays at 50 for obvious reasons if they make their gameplay better then the slow ramp up will be gone , if they are removed however then it will only become slower for the simple reason that smn is the most fun when everything you got is tied together. you could argue all day that summoner needs to be flashy exciting with cool animations and id argue back how smn should be about the moment to moment choice picking the right summon for the occasion supporting their team while trying not to die methodical.


besides that i have no problems you got your opinion i got mine . And SE will propably ignore both add another demi and wont fix any issues ai has or ones that they caused

[Shougun]

To be fair for identity I said as long as they do more primal stuff and keep up with the grand elements then they are good lol (so I'm pretty loose on how they do that, I liked ShB but it doesn't have to be that specific way), but you are right there 9000 ways to do summoner posted lol. So while I may want SMN to change a certain way their identity, now that we have demi, isn't in some sort of great crisis. At ARR before the trance and demi though I would totally argue it was.

So my desires for any changes, at this point, post demi, post trance, are now just personal over crisis arguments. Maybe if not clear to you then it is now

I was bringing up old ARR and visuals because it's where the job came from, and also visuals was mentioned in another post.

Also to note the black mage example was used to show how subversion could go really smoothly or not, I agree a battle alchemist black mage is a farther. As egi were vaguely in shape of primals, just no where near the very consistent core splendor all the other summoners had.

If I was making a more direct comparison I'd say something like.... John (random name chosen for example) is a king (grand visuals) and how he has always been a king in every game, then suddenly FFXIV makes him a commoner (egi). When every version of John, and his core role/identity built around it, but one was a king you can't tell me it wasn't part of it's identity and that being a commoner is totally inline- that change is a subversion (some may like it, in this instance I didn't though lol- post ARR SMN has the grand (king) elements via demi and trance stuff though).

In your argument for variety to add better combat viability I totally hear that, though you can argue how best to do that (like you show, personally I imagine dissida yuna but as you said everyone has an argument on how to do that).

[HeulGDarian]

you know what im gonna go ahead and say whats in everyone minds.

I love demis

they are really fun they are more active and they make everyone praise them for it. Im gonna go ahead and say another thing.
Egis are boring they arent active they just auto attack and they are not as cool as demis.

Imo all this complaining would simply stop if the egis were more engaging. which is something that i assume nobody is against to happening. So how would you make egis more engaging but at the same time weaker than demis and not an exact copy pasted gameplay mech?

im gonna say my idea which id like to believe its not preposterous to happening.

Firstly id put devotion down to level 50 along with enkindle. The reason is that id love that devotion worked like enkindle different for every summon.
Secondly id like that egis instead of doing just autos they did combos. As in he has the first auto attack then his second auto attack is clasified as a different ability and the third did a finisher one.
thirdly since egis are something that a summoner keeps out 100% of the time they need to have healthbars and aggro something that i can depend on if i sleep on the wheel.
fourthly id opt to have their abilities be as they were before off any kind of cooldown ,completely independent and something that you could have on auto pilot or use yourself.
and fifth i dont know how exactly they could do this but make the egis give you a self buff . like the titan shield but a titan shield wouldnt fit being in this old version but a bit updated of egis. could be just transform an ogcd in comparison to demis who transform gcds or something but i pretty sure that would be impossible.

[HeulGDarian]

To be fair for identity I said as long as they do more primal stuff and keep up with the grand elements then they are good lol (so I'm pretty loose on how they do that, I liked ShB but it doesn't have to be that specific way), but you are right there 9000 ways to do summoner posted lol. So while I may want SMN to change a certain way their identity, now that we have demi, isn't in some sort of great crisis. At ARR before the trance and demi though I would totally argue it was.


So my desires for any changes, at this point, post demi, post trance, are now just personal over crisis arguments. Maybe if not clear to you then it is now


I was bringing up old ARR and visuals because it's where the job came from, and also visuals was mentioned in another post.



Also to note the black mage example was used to show how subversion could go really smoothly or not, I agree a battle alchemist black mage is not as far a subversion as FFXIV ARR SMN. As egi were vaguely in shape of primals, just no where near the very consistent core splendor all the other summoners had.



If I was making a more direct comparison I'd say something like.... John (random name chosen for example) is a king (grand visuals) and how he has always been a king in every game, then suddenly FFXIV makes him a commoner (egi). When every version of John, and his core role/identity built around it, but one was a king you can't tell me it wasn't part of it's identity and that being a commoner is totally inline- that change is a subversion (some may like it, in this instance I didn't though lol- post ARR SMN has the grand (king) elements via demi and trance stuff though).


In your arugment for variety to add better combat viability I totally hear that, though you can argue how best to do that (like you show, personally I imagine dissida yuna but as you said everyone has an argument on how to do that).

You said king and i remembered i want my aoe king title back :C. yoshi p pls remove all the 50% downgrades TT . Overal i think we reached a point where everything that could be said has been said. I wrote the how to improve egis imo comment before the forums loaded in your comment. I do hope that people answer the question i set to that comment or maybe i should make a thread about it cause i think, the egis could really improve the job to a point that most People Will be happy and it could also bring more freshmen in.

[Tulzscha]

Every single person has its own ideas on what summoner needs, and so they fight and post that they are right and that others are wrong and that they are correct

So true. But everyone has a different idea of what's right or fun and you'll never make everyone happy, just a fact of life. The best we can do when it comes to giving feedback is agree on a problem and let the devs figure out how to fix it. Coming up with ideas can be fun but it's not like they're going to be made reality.

The most popular idea I've seen though seems to be one where every spell is related to a summon in some way, even if everything else is kept the same. I could get behind that, the whole dot package feels out of place now. Overall I'm happy with where SMN is though, I'd say changes to the job would be very low priority. I have gotten bored with it over the course of ShB but everything gets stale with time, no big deal.

So how would you make egis more engaging but at the same time weaker than demis and not an exact copy pasted gameplay mech?

I had that same thought in some other SMN thread a while back. My idea was to make them something in between demis and egis, on about a 1m cd and lasting 30s with a loadout system where you pick 3 or 4 out of 9 or so to have on your bars and cycle through, then you could have synergies between them and utility summons that would get used more often and more niche abilities to play with, like maybe there's one that attacks exactly two enemies for example. So you'd still always have one out but with more variety and interaction. Could be a pita at times though.

[MirronTulaxia]

That’s definitely an important aspect of my point. It’s not that Summoner is fun or unfun, it’s just not a Summoner really. I’d be fine with the job remaining and them just renaming it (Probably should be Arcanist as it reminds me of the Ivalice branch of magic) if it meant we got a proper one. But a lot of people take that as meaning that the job is bad, which is an entirely separate issue.

[Seraphor]

I would like it if more of SMN's spells were summon related, such as Outburst, Painflare and Tri-disaster being based on other primals like Shiva, Ramuh, Leviathan, etc.
You'd then have three tiers of summons: 1. Single abilities. 2. Egi's. 3. Demi's.
The only problem is that these skills would therefore need to be tied to job quests that involve attuning to those respective primal energies. Which would require rewriting past job quests and lock those skills in place prohibiting rebalancing down the line.


Another thing I'd quite like, is for the 80-90 leg to be based around the Warring Triad. These were essentially the Titan/Garuda/Ifrit of their age so there's plenty of similarities to draw on.
They could be a direct upgrade to Egi's, just as Garuda/Ifrit were to Carbuncles, and then Titan/Garuda/Ifrit could become Egi Glamours for the warring Triad.

Sephirot
Chesed: 80 ST
Force Field: 30% Max HP Shield for 30s
Fiendish Rage: 280 AoE
Ein Sof: 300 AoE + 30 DoT area

Sophia
Infusion: 50 AoE
Gnostic Rant: 180 AoE
Alon Teleos: 100 AoE + 50 DoT area
Cintamani: 400 AoE

Zurvan
Tyrfing: 120 ST
Demon Claw: 280 ST
Tail End: 280 -50% AoE
Biting Halberd: 360 cone AoE + 30 DoT

These are merely 'upgraded' versions of Titan/Garuda/Ifrit, but I'd expect they could rework them entirely with new movesets, and then retroactively adapt Titan/Garuda/Ifrit's skills to those moves.

[Morningstar1337]

The option to add a trait to the spells to make them primal themed would likely be easier, especially considering that the Phoenix demi has no explicit explanation

[Shougun]

I would like it if more of SMN's spells were summon related, such as Outburst, Painflare and Tri-disaster being based on other primals like Shiva, Ramuh, Leviathan, etc.
You'd then have three tiers of summons: 1. Single abilities. 2. Egi's. 3. Demi's.
The only problem is that these skills would therefore need to be tied to job quests that involve attuning to those respective primal energies. Which would require rewriting past job quests and lock those skills in place prohibiting rebalancing down the line.


Another thing I'd quite like, is for the 80-90 leg to be based around the Warring Triad. These were essentially the Titan/Garuda/Ifrit of their age so there's plenty of similarities to draw on.
They could be a direct upgrade to Egi's, just as Garuda/Ifrit were to Carbuncles, and then Titan/Garuda/Ifrit could become Egi Glamours for the warring Triad.

Sephirot
Chesed: 80 ST
Force Field: 30% Max HP Shield for 30s
Fiendish Rage: 280 AoE
Ein Sof: 300 AoE + 30 DoT area

Sophia
Infusion: 50 AoE
Gnostic Rant: 180 AoE
Alon Teleos: 100 AoE + 50 DoT area
Cintamani: 400 AoE

Zurvan
Tyrfing: 120 ST
Demon Claw: 280 ST
Tail End: 280 -50% AoE
Biting Halberd: 360 cone AoE + 30 DoT

These are merely 'upgraded' versions of Titan/Garuda/Ifrit, but I'd expect they could rework them entirely with new movesets, and then retroactively adapt Titan/Garuda/Ifrit's skills to those moves.

The option to add a trait to the spells to make them primal themed would likely be easier, especially considering that the Phoenix demi has no explicit explanation

This is my favorite concept, improving the kit without killing it for those who liked the mechanics (for those who like the Arcanist specific ability theme itself, being arcanist based, it'll be a problem of course but.. ;/). Of course smoothing and or making more compelling mechanics when possible, the job doesn't need to be frozen, but not having to be like "REDESIGN IT, DO IT AGAIN".

I really like and hope for the idea that the job could gain flavor to their spells too, like if our raise became phoenix infused in some way, or our useless (pretty much) cure becomes something useful. I would love to see the primal elements "twist" actions to be each be a bit unique, that speaks to the primal power being used. Like I might be able to guess the primal from reading the description of the spell. Like the cure could become carby inspired, since they've done heals, buffs, and shields- visually you could instantly tell of course yet also via description you'd be able to narrow down to one or a few potential primals that would do that effect (a simple cure may make you think Carby but perhaps a touch more, not just a cure with carby colors).

On Seraphor's point of egi change I think that'd be neat, as it steps up egi's power but doesn't just gut them (which keeps the job's general mechanical and progressing shape without an entire redesign), not that I would be sad if the job became purely demi like, but I think that's a far more dangerous potentially upsetting and costly move lol, plus it can act as a logical upgrade path of egi (which I would love to see lol). Keeps the lore flow in that you can't just simply whip out and easily maintain subservient primal pets but by the time you're level 80 you're also significantly more capable and stronger, so makes sense you could hold a more complicated (still not 1:1) form indefinitely (unlike demi which while not 1:1 is very close to the original, which you can only use in short sprints since they're too powerful).

Though I'd love for the egi, current or in your example, to get a bit more character than just color changes or potency increases. Even if some of that character has no function in boss content. Like Sophia might be able to temporarily enfeeble trash mobs in one of those egi assaults, does nothing in boss fights but really adds more to the character of her ability description. I went from "some aoe spell color theme'd to a primal" to suddenly being able to narrow down which primal the spell came from by description alone, even though it hardly has an effect on the end game balance (since the enfeeble wouldn't work on bosses). Of course they don't have to be generic/trash only effects like that, they could also change the balance of the spell a bit (so long as it's a positive gain)- just saying not all the tweaks that explain character of the primal need to be balance changers.

Easier said than done for some moves, like what might you do if Ramuh takes over painflare? You can easily make it look like a Ramuh AoE, and it'd look epic, like you could even take some inspiration from the FFXV Ramuh attack move, but mechanically it might be harder to make it scream Ramuh. Perhaps after the staff does it's judgement like effect (FFXV staff coming down) the staff then releases a sort of final static discharge that affects all the nearby enemies with rolling thunder (take extra damage when they make actions like attacking or casting)- the damage amount doesn't have to be extreme but that might give people enough info to guess (FFXIV's) Ramuh from description. In terms of just lightning though you might just say the spell does more damage the more enemies are in the area (three being the break point compared to single target attacks, like usual).

I like the idea that you'd have short burst primal spells (variety of normal spam and some less often here comes the boom), long term primal spells (less complicated / less stressing because you have to be able to hold it), and then short term pet variants that can only be held temporarily- this is the formula that stands already, but consuming the rest of the job with that formula would be pretty pleasing to myself (painflare -> judgement, etc). By moving the spells to be primal related you give it an extreme summoner content job focus, and all three forms of primal content basically describes the entire history of summoner (one offs, full replacements, timed replacements). So this is really personally my hope, though like I said before I'm okay with pretty much anything so long as they make sure it's more primal content specifically.

Of course you could do other things with the egi, like spur making egi almost demi temporarily (new assault effects/temporary visual change), or even weirdly like an Eden sort of moment where you combine your egi with another primal essence. Or if we were trying to bring in the other egi as content vs just a glamour we might try something like on our demi cycle- perhaps after every complete demi cycle your egi set rotates like on a coin, may relate it to some sort of elemental coin concept. Titan, Ifrit, Garuda -> Shiva (sword and shield form), Leviathan, Ramuh.

Also my suggestion for the story issue have the summoner get mini-job quests, they can explain any differences in story and even get you to visit certain primal locations, like the first egi change quest can explain how you learned a new egi type (depending on when you can bind it to things like having traveled the void between worlds has somehow let you sync to more primals at once, gaining some special aethercite you keep on hand to funnel and act as a capacitor for the unique extra energy, or your earlier collection of elemental crystals + some hydalen gift- etc, just depends on when and where).

There really is so many different things that could be done lol. Some bias, but just yeah please load the job out with way more primal influence and hopefully with abilities that feel like that primal. I get that a lot of primal differences when it came to damage was 'element X damage' in the sRPG(s) but when possible I'd love to see attempts to make the primal speak in the actual actions. As for the glamour (weeeee lol coming back to the thread's title), I honestly just want to see more primal content, if Ramuh showed up as a spell concept in the core part of the job I'd be happier than if they showed up as simply "choose your color of damage" (replace one color/egi to the exact same thing but of a different color), though that's my personal bias. Ultimately I'd take anything more related to primals over less.

[remiff]

I just think that the summoner needs more a change of disign of the spells rather than a redesign of the job, the egi assault are generally a good idea, but the egi assault should all be range spellf, to avoid the ifrit ghosting.
and an overhaul of the basics egis '' ifrit, garuda, titan '' with 3 new skins '' the warrior triad seems the most appropriate '' my opinion ''.

then upgrade the animation of the basic spells, ruin, fester, painflare, and the dot, to primals signature attack, without changing the effects. and of course change the name of the spells for beeing more summoner friendly.


if unfortunately in the future they would remove the egi, I would like them to transform the rotation of the summoner with almost permanent demi or it would be necessary to switch between them each time, with just a small effect proper to the demi like pheonix regen, its could also be nice.