SMN Why don't we hear about egi glamours anymore?

[MirronTulaxia]

Not this argument again...

Especially considering that:

1. Pre-FF10, summons were little more than glorified spells
2. Each FF game has different takes on certain jobs

Summoners in FF14 do summon something (Egis and Demis).
Now whether you agree with it or not is something else entirely.

Besides, the same could be said about every other job in the series in general (and FF14 in particular).
Like say, BLU or DRG in FF11, or SCH in FF14.

Personally, I'm OK with this incarnation of the Summoner job, and I'm hoping they continue expanding on it.

Outside of XIV, all spells under the category of Summon Magic (or the equivalent) either directly involved a summon or was a summon itself. What you said isn’t remotely a rebuttal and just indicates you don’t know the series terribly well. I didn’t say anything about Egis. Nor did I say that they had to model a particular game. But the series standard should be followed. If they swapped the names of White Mage and Black Mage in XIV but nothing else responding with “well each game does it differently” is pretty moot at addressing what was said. You should think things through a bit more when replying instead of leaping to the defense of a poor decision.

As well you’re just making a logical fallacy by trying to point out other jobs, but none of your examples really violate the series standard. Outside of really XIV, which is part of the issue. Though Scholar isn’t really a good example of that.

[Exodus-E]

Outside of XIV, all spells under the category of Summon Magic (or the equivalent) either directly involved a summon or was a summon itself. What you said isn’t remotely a rebuttal and just indicates you don’t know the series terribly well.

The problem here is the lore/rules they set up for this game.

Summoning Primals is very, very dangerous for everyone.
Thus, the only option for implementing the Summoner job here was through that one "loophole" (i.e. creating constructs based on them).

Besides, the summons from FF10 to FF13 weren't "spells" exactly, since they could be (somewhat) controlled.
But they were involved in one way or another.

I didn’t say anything about Egis. Nor did I say that they had to model a particular game. But the series standard should be followed.

But you did imply it by stating, and I quote:
"As is it really is a disservice to the job"

And you do call upon summons (as pets) to fight alongside you, and they're based off the classic ones besides (Ifrit, Titan and Garuda).
And through a certain skill (Enkindle), you command them to use their "signature moves" (Inferno, Earthen Fury and Aerial Blast).

Anything else is just extra (in this case, using DoTs), since that's pretty much what the Summoner job was in previous games: only about summoning.
Which is why they complemented it with other jobs/abilities in past games (such as Black Magic or White Magic).

If they swapped the names of White Mage and Black Mage in XIV but nothing else responding with “well each game does it differently” is pretty moot at addressing what was said. You should think things through a bit more when replying instead of leaping to the defense of a poor decision.

• White Mages have consistently been known for using healing spells and having Holy.
• Black Mages have consistently been known for using attacking spells (with the classical elements of Fire, Thunder and Blizzard) and having Flare.
• Summoners have consistently been known for summoning creatures to fight alongside them.

So theme-wise, they're pretty much on point here.
If they swapped names while keeping their roles, THEN we'd have a serious problem.

As well you’re just making a logical fallacy by trying to point out other jobs, but none of your examples really violate the series standard.

• DRG has a dragon minion to fight alongside you in FF11. The series standard had them fighting alone.
• BLU has a middle-eastern motif in FF11. The series standard had them having a domino mask and a cape (european motif).
• SCH is a healer and has a fairy companion in FF14. The series standard had them relying on their grimoire alone (and using spells from both schools of magic).

So they kind of do?

[MirronTulaxia]

Snip.

I have... no idea how you've come to some of the conclusions you have on my stances. I'll try to be more mind numbing explicit in the hopes that you'll get what I'm saying.

1a. The lore is set up after the jobs are done. Plain and simple. They have bent lore to justify things in the past. We even have NieR, literally another series, represented as a continuation of that games story here in this game. You really can't use lore as a defense for anything.

1b. I did not, at any point, say that we should summon Primals.

1c. Creating constructs is perfectly fine. My issue is not with the fact that we have constructs. It's that the entirety of your moveset is not constructs or construct related.

1d. You still performed a "spell" to summon them.

1e. It isn't just X-XIII where they were involved. Every FF, outside of XIV, where you have a Summon Magic or specifically Summoner job, all things in that category are either the summons, or tied directly to them.

2a. I didn't because why it's a disservice has zero to do with Egis. They could all be Carbuncles, they could all have full on Trial level Primal size, it would change absolutely nothing about my stance.

2b. The issue is they fight alongside you instead of for you, in your place, so on and so forth. Only so many ways to say the basic thing. And I can think of ways that you could have something that is closer to being a Summoner than what we got without it necessarily being a pet job.

2c. The extra stuff is the issue, yes.

2d. And those were composite characters, not one job. The job, in and of itself, is just summons.

3a. And all of those are accurate to their jobs here, except Summoner. Summoner is known for summoning... and that's it. Summoner is not known for DoT spam or invocation.

4a. Dragoon really only has a small number of core traits to it. Fight with a lance. Jump. That's really it. And the very first Dragoon, FFII, they're known for fighting with dragons, so you're really off on that point already.

4b. Aesthetics aren't a violation of the theme, and you're wrong about that to boot. Quina does not, in any way, wear a Domino Mask and a Cape. I can point at Kimahri, Quistis, Strago, or if you want specifically jobs then I can point at the Gun Mage, which predates XI's and does not, in any way, resemble that. No matter which way you slice it they don't have a consistent aesthetic focus, not exactly an issue.

4c. Scholar appears in something along the lines of four games. Barring having a book and using magic you can't really point at much of an identity. FFIII they have items and scanning as a gimmick of sorts, low level magic (I want to say even lower than Red but I'm not positive and ultimately moot). FFXI they have an entirely different theme of basically having access to both but having to commit to one or the other. And TA2 they use books but their spells are all innately destructive and hit everyone on the field, enemy and ally alike. There are probably more but the only major consistent theme is "they use books". And prior to Shadowbringers where they cut a bunch of their moveset I would say they did have a fair balance of healing and damage.

[Exodus-E]

Ah, now I see your point(s).

Apologies for earlier, but whenever people complain about SMN not being "true to past FF games", they usually refer to the Egis themselves (instead of anything else).

With that out of the way:

1c. Creating constructs is perfectly fine. My issue is not with the fact that we have constructs. It's that the entirety of your moveset is not constructs or construct related.

2c. The extra stuff is the issue, yes.

So that's what you meant all along.

Yes, while it's true that most of its toolkit doesn't involve its summons, I'd argue that from Stormblood on-wards they (slowly) started taking steps in the right direction.
With the introduction of Aetherpact -> Devotion or the altered Egi Assaults, for instance.

So I'd say it's just a matter of time before SMN becomes far more involved with them.

Still, the job itself should be able to defend itself (to complement its summons), so at minimum, those Ruin-related spells should stay.

[MirronTulaxia]

Ah, now I see your point(s).

Apologies for earlier, but whenever people complain about SMN not being "true to past FF games", they usually refer to the Egis themselves (instead of anything else).

With that out of the way:

So that's what you meant all along.

Yes, while it's true that most of its toolkit doesn't involve its summons, I'd argue that from Stormblood on-wards they (slowly) started taking steps in the right direction.
With the introduction of Aetherpact -> Devotion or the altered Egi Assaults, for instance.

So I'd say it's just a matter of time before SMN becomes far more involved with them.

Still, the job itself should be able to defend itself (to complement its summons), so at minimum, those Ruin-related spells should stay.

It's fine. I didn't clarify as stringently as I should have.

As far as ShB representing it more... I don't feel I really agree. Like, I have a vague idea of what a Summoner could do without being a pet class that still feels like it's summoning and such, but the Arcanist with some transformations we currently have is not really it.

[Shougun]

• Summoners have consistently been known for summoning creatures to fight alongside them.

So theme-wise, they're pretty much on point here.
If they swapped names while keeping their roles, THEN we'd have a serious problem.

Would disagree with original ARR meeting Summoner theme very well in that Summoners are known to summon grand creatures pretty much exclusively, even those without scale (Carby) were pretty unique and had some sort of regal element about them, of that then each of these creatures, even the small ones, call down pretty excessive and visually incredible attacks.

Egi, as a visual set piece themselves, at no point meets grand summoning or really any sort of regal look (SMN do have access to carby, though- although perhaps slightly subjective in that some people might think potato is regal lol), in general the egi are pretty much the opposite of everything all the other FF summoners did visually, except perhaps the enkindle part of the egi (that is pretty big magic spell, at the time it was added at least). While mechanically SMN are for the most part a one off casting mechanic there has still be quite a diversity in general of what those one offs do (and then implementation even after that), so almost any sort of mechanic would 'fit' the SMN (pretty much any mechanic is 'ff summoning' one off, pet, party replacement, etc). Wanting to note at this point Demi of FFXIV are pretty grand. Which is to say there has been very little mechanical consistency with summoners but there has been a VERY and probably only consistent element of visual and conceptually thematic view of summoners- one that summons greatness to visually spectacular treats.

Anyways we've obviously not ARR SMN anymore, so if we're talking about the ShB SMN at level 80 I'm sure we agree, but I just wanted to narrow your definition down because 'calling/summoning just about anything is summoner as depicted by the FF series' I would say is definitely incorrect (I've added words simply to show that you need more words to give the proper image of FF's summoner, as it shouldn't be that vague if you wanted to recreate the image). Summoners, of FF, called down a specific type of action, one that had OOMPH whether it be cute like chocobo butt stumping, elegant and beautiful, gaudy and excessive, demonic and aggressive, it was always "extra", incredible like drowning the world in water or blasting through the planet's crust with it's laser beam. Now you'll need to pull that back a bit for MMO setting but you don't have to pull it back as hard as they did, as proven by many other MMOs with magical pet jobs with impressive presence on the field.

If you had to describe FF summoners visually in a single word it would be things like 'excessive', significantly more so than any other job- and consistent across all variants of the job (except ARR summoner). Which egi are definitely not lol; although, with their enkindle being sort of neat, though definitely 'minimized' and are definitely minimized compared to some of the other job's in this game's obnoxious actions, though we'v got our huge freaking pillars of fire and energy now with big chonking summons like bahamut. So like I said SMN has changed quite a bit since ARR, and perhaps you were making that definition without thinking of where we came.

That I just wanted to make your definition more specific because with what you have you could have beastmaster or puppetmaster be in vague theme of summoner depending on how you built it, Shaman in WoW is a summoner because he draws totems and uses magic (assuming to meet your creature definition we write the totems are alive in lore somewhere), no that is way too generic of a definition that fits just about anything if you wiggle it, summoner of the FF series is definitely not just a job that calls some random small stuff to do things- it's a job of calling forth incredible beings (almost exclusively otherworldly) that give treats of gravitas and absurdity (how and what they do being only vaguely consistent, how they are presented is the most consistent part of being a summon). That I'm saying this because a key part of their definition is not in your definition, that you can't have that vague of a definition if you wanted to successfully and consistently recreate their image, obviously as you can see from every other FF game in the series- this grand, extra, image is very consistent and therefore absolutely part of their job visual design (at the start of SMN's life in ARR pretty much any other MMO out there with a magical pet/evoking job had way more oomph, which was nearly a crime to FF summoners because that's been their thing since ever- but they've obviously corrected that since then and FFXIV's magical pet/evoking job is holding it's own a lot better and leading in some ways).

Would be like black mage but all the spells are tiny and barely explode, no one would be happy with that (very clearly as progression the black mage is meant to be making impressive moves, it's a core part of the identity- visual theme). I only nitpick this much because you're talking to someone who felt they didn't go far enough (mechanically) and you're using a very wiggle-able definition, one with so much wiggle room that it could produce ARR's summoner (or other weird things like a shaman from WoW) and I thought ARR's egi only summons and non-primal combat focus was a 'disservice' to the image of being a 'FF' summoner (disservice seems to be the word in trend, I don't think I used that word back then but just for cadence I used it there lol). Something that I had argued fairly strongly about back when SMN was fresh, and I feel, even if coincidentally, quite listened to (and hence why I often defend that SE does actually listen and take feedback and thank them for when I can notice). Demi makes it a lot better, and I quite like the assaults concept, hence I frequently thank them for, and which is why I keep adding I think they've brought the job in the right direction and should maintain this direction hard, and harder if possible, perhaps even taking those notes of change earlier (without huge retcons at least).

Like moogles have a visual theme, it varies slightly, but if someone called chocobos moogles and moogles cactuars that'd just be nonsense. Summoners have a visual theme, that is easy to detail just by looking at them in their context of their own game and in comparison to others with them in it- it's the most consistent part of them (said a few times will say a few more times, as if you're going to find the identity to something and little elements change here and there but one stays the same you can call it the defining feature as it becomes the through line concept between each iteration, grandness is part of that).

In terms of systems (mechanic's not visual focus) of other games for Summoner you have to parse out jobs, job menus, and jobless games. In every game that has job system of summoner it pretty much exclusively relates to summons, well except FFXIV lol. In this way FFXIV might be seen by some as a diluted vision of Summoner. In games that have jobless situations but have the summoner action it's almost always either under the summon menu in battle or at least made available through unique summoning items/actions (like materia dedicated to summons), in this case FFXIV's summoner may be seen a big negatively but the situation is quite a bit more vague. Of course to note one of the biggest well known summoners of the entire FF series (Yuna), is definitely known for both her curative magic and summoning and she is frequently referred to as a summoner (as she is). Though you could say that's mixing job title with other activities, like an engineer may also be a volunteer fire fighter- that doesn't mean being an engineer has anything to do with being a fire fighter. So I think this is where Mirron focuses on, pretty much in all occasions the massive focus of something called summoner should be on summon actions. This is something back in ARR, beyond just visuals, that I had also really wished for SE to work on- and while maybe not as much as I'd like, and that's fair since they've lots of resources to spread (and people who liked previous mechanics, so they try to maintain that relationship and add elements), it's certainly a lot more and bigger too. So in both ways they've improved the job in a way I had really wanted, I thank them for that- besides I didn't dislike the ARR mechanics as much as I felt it missed the identity mechanically (well and visually).

Anyway I wanted to disagree (perhaps some extent to MirronTulaxia as well, if they are suggesting just about any sort of summoning no matter what it looks like is 'ff summoner' as there has been an element so consistent that is core to the identity of being a summoner (like using blue magic spells must look like monster spells)), that there is a 'visual' component to FF summoner, a component that while maybe needing to be dampened for MMO games doesn't need to be neglected (as other MMOs shown, as FF shows themselves via FFXI and their Demi), and it's not like as you are suggesting blue mage can be eastern or western / can be whatever visually so it doesn't matter (even though it does if we're talking actual spell effects, which is the only core of that job, there is no core on other parts as it's been inconsistent there, that job has to have monster spells as visualized by the monsters is the visual core that can't change without seriously gambling the job's thematic identity)- that because you made one example of inconsistency so therefore Summoner can be whatever too. Perhaps you weren't trying to make that comparison, honestly I think you weren't, but I read it as such potential and if you were then no- for summoner there is a visual component that has been in every single FF game (all summons have had what I would I guess lazily and quickly call "impact" or "grand presence" both in summon and summon effect). There is a visual aesthetic to summoner, that is absolutely key description to the job. You may have aesthetic changes for blue mage but it's rather irrelevant for that job when the only key has been monster spells.

Which isn't to say I'm condemning ShB's summoner- I'm not and I wouldn't because I think they've found the right train tracks and just need to keep riding them (each expansion they emphasize the primal and the grand). I've complemented and thanked SE multiple times for changing direction (each expansion no less) away from just egis and it's majority non-primal related actions. That they move into more primal related and more oomph attack content (as I've asked for both mechanical and visual changes), as the job has changed a lot since ARR in terms of visual and mechanical focus. Just keep adding more primal related stuff wherever possible, it's why I say I cheer them on now as I think they've got it and will take it to great places (unlike when I was really worried in ARR wondering how they could have so little of it relate to primals and also make WoW's Warlock have more bang than their most 'bangin' job class in all of the the entire series (SMN)- just didn't seem right at all, but that's not really true anymore ~! <3 ).