Big pulls with Dark Knight.

[Venoshock-]

All I'm getting from this is that you don't know how to play the class. At all. DRK has been the best at big pulls since its inception. In HW, Dark arts + bloodprice + blood weapon + Abyssal drain spam was overpowered, literally no need for healers since MP return from enemies hitting you gets turned into massive returns from abyssal drain, even more so wtih tank stance off. In SB and ShB we have TBN which is hands down the best and strongest CD in the game, especially if used during big pulls off CD constantly.

AD is more powerful than Clemency during big pulls because it does damage, is ogcd and 200 potency x however amount of enemies there are.


You're wrong. You're playing the class wrong. You're using Clemency horribly wrong. Stop arguing with people who know better than you and learn how to play the damn class. DRK is more than fine.

[Elladie]

This has been an hilarious read. OP makes a post, literally no one who replies agrees with him, everyone who replies is just 'flexing'. So funny.

I can't comment on the meat of this discussion since I only level my tanks via squadrons/Trusts. But I enjoyed levelling DRK, and I haven't noticed my WAR for example being any more able to survive the few bigger pulls in Holminster that the dungeon itself throws at you. I'm a terribad tank which is why I only do solo levelling but I enjoy the differences between them, I would hate them all to be identikit

[Goji1639]

Honestly, all you people do is not ready a word I've said and repeat the same completely irrelevant crap over and over. I mean, you've all missed the point so completely after several explanations I have no choice but to think you're doing it on purpose to be annoying.

The thing is that no one here has actually disagreed with me. They're honestly so far away from my actual argument with their responses I'm not even sure they're talking to me. I don't think I've ever seen a community struggle this much to wrap their heads around a pretty simple context. I'm going to keep an eye on this thread and even keep responding because honestly... I'm fascinated. I want to see how many times and in how many different ways I can explain my simple point, and have you all completely fail to grasp it. I want to see for how long you'll all continue giving the same exact response that has nothing to do with what I'm trying to say.

[Venoshock-]

I've been playing Paladin a lot recently and decided to switch back to my Dark Knight for some 80 dungeons, and I feel like Dark Knights are TERRIBLE at handling big pulls.

My routine is to immediately pop arms length and TBN, and TBN is eaten through in like 1 second. Since TBN is basically our entire defensive tool kit I have to almost immediately also pop shadow wall, rampart, Abysal Drain, etc. just to keep myself alive for the next 14 seconds until TBN is back. Then once that TBN gets eaten I'm helpless, so everything better be pretty close to dead.

Now obviously a good healer can keep you up well enough, but with my Paladin the healer barely mattered. I could keep myself up for a good 30 seconds easily with only a couple of CDs, Sheltron and clemency while the healer figured out where his heal button was. With my Dark Knight I don't even want to pull big in randoms. Am I not playing the class right is it really just that squishy?

This is your original post.

I and many other specifically have replied directly to the demonstrably wrong information you've put in here.

Honestly, all you people do is not ready a word I've said and repeat the same completely irrelevant crap over and over. I mean, you've all missed the point so completely after several explanations I have no choice but to think you're doing it on purpose to be annoying.

The thing is that no one here has actually disagreed with me. They're honestly so far away from my actual argument with their responses I'm not even sure they're talking to me. I don't think I've ever seen a community struggle this much to wrap their heads around a pretty simple context. I'm going to keep an eye on this thread and even keep responding because honestly... I'm fascinated. I want to see how many times and in how many different ways I can explain my simple point, and have you all completely fail to grasp it. I want to see for how long you'll all continue giving the same exact response that has nothing to do with what I'm trying to say.

So no, I do disagree with you directly. especially with this;

I've been playing Paladin a lot recently and decided to switch back to my Dark Knight for some 80 dungeons, and I feel like Dark Knights are TERRIBLE at handling big pulls...is it really just that squishy?

It's wrong. Stop gaslighting us when your OP is on the front page lol We get it, you can't read tool tips and the responses people are giving you, but can you please at least read your own crap?

[Goji1639]

This is your original post.

I and many other specifically have replied directly to the demonstrably wrong information you've put in here.




So no, I do disagree with you directly. especially with this;



It's wrong. Stop gaslighting us when your OP is on the front page lol We get it, you can't read tool tips and the responses people are giving you, but can you please at least read your own crap?

They're terrible at handling big pulls compared to Paladin in regards to sustaining themselves over a long period of time. That's the context I've provided and explained SEVERAL times in this thread.

A few of you actually addressed it and agreed that's the case, but didn't care because bad groups/slow kills aren't a context they care about. That's fine. It's the majority of you that are intentionally missing the point just so you can take this opportunity to flex and call me bad that are grating. People being dense and missing the point gets on my nerves, and this community seems to excel at that.

[Venoshock-]

They're terrible at handling big pulls compared to Paladin in regards to sustaining themselves over time. That's the context I've provided and explained SEVERAL times in this thread.

A few of you actually addressed it and agreed that's the case, but didn't care because bad groups/slow kills aren't a context they care about. That's fine. It's the majority of you that are intentionally missing the point just so you can take this opportunity to flex and call me bad that are grating. People being dense and missing the point gets on my nerves.

No, again, you're very very wrong. Nobody agreed with this. DRK is literally the best tank at handling big pulls from a defensive and offensive standpoint simply because of TBN. It's been proven time and time again.

The experiences you've shared with us is simply you not knowing how to play the class. You're a bad dark knight. That's literally it. You're a bad dark knight, having a hard time because you don't know how to play the class, but you have so very little self awareness about that, You feel you need to come here to the forums to get some confirmation that it MUST be DRK that's bad and totally not you and then when literally nobody agrees with you and gives in depth information as to why, you do on the defence rather than put your hands up and just admit you're bad.

You're comparing the class and its tool kit to PLD's clemency (another thing you're using incorrectly if we're talking optimisation). PLD has to sacrifice a big chunk of its DPS to use clemency. Sure it can save runs if the healer is dead and nobody can raise but that scenario isn't and shouldn't be the norm.

Learn how to play PLD and DRK pls.

[Goji1639]

Absolutely amazing. I explain the point word for word, you quote it and you still completely miss it.

I never said Clemency was optimal, but when it comes to surviving a large pull in a group that's not killing it fast enough or healing you adequately optimal doesn't matter. A Paladin can survive that indefinitely by sacrificing some damage. A DRK just dies. DRK is not even close to Paladin when it comes to sustaining itself long term, because of Clemency.

Now PLEASE completely miss the point again with your response. I'm enthralled; I can't get enough.

[SamRF]

Honestly, all you people do is not ready a word I've said and repeat the same completely irrelevant crap over and over. I mean, you've all missed the point so completely after several explanations I have no choice but to think you're doing it on purpose to be annoying.

The thing is that no one here has actually disagreed with me. They're honestly so far away from my actual argument with their responses I'm not even sure they're talking to me. I don't think I've ever seen a community struggle this much to wrap their heads around a pretty simple context. I'm going to keep an eye on this thread and even keep responding because honestly... I'm fascinated. I want to see how many times and in how many different ways I can explain my simple point, and have you all completely fail to grasp it. I want to see for how long you'll all continue giving the same exact response that has nothing to do with what I'm trying to say.

I don't think you could get better answers as Shougun has given you. We simply disagree that other Tanks need to have the same potential sustainability as PLD and believe that the fact DRK has better sustainability when disregarding Clemency (An ability that sacrifices DPS) makes up for it. You believe all tanks should have the potential to sustain in bad situations as PLD does and I (+others probably) disagree, that's it.

The reason we don't believe DRK is terrible at big pulls (as you state in your OP) is because we believe DRK has better DPS+sustainability ratio compared to PLD which would have to sacrifice DPS if they want to surpass DRK sustainability during big pulls. DPS+sustainability ratio is simply more important to us than the max potential sustainability. While in your opinion, max potential is more important. Correct me if wrong but I think this is the crux of the debate, meaning there's no misunderstanding left so we may agree to disagree now and part our ways.

[Goji1639]

I don't think you could get better answers as Shougun has given you. We simply disagree that other Tanks need to have the same potential sustainability as PLD and believe that the fact DRK has better sustainability when disregarding Clemency (An ability that sacrifices DPS) makes up for it. You believe all tanks should have the potential to sustain in bad situations as PLD does and I (+others probably) disagree, that's it.

The reason we don't believe DRK is terrible at big pulls (as you state in your OP) is because we believe DRK has better DPS+sustainability ratio compared to PLD which would have to sacrifice DPS if they want to surpass DRK sustainability during big pulls. DPS+sustainability ratio is simply more important to us than the max potential sustainability. While in your opinion, max potential is more important. Correct me if wrong but I think this is the crux of the debate, meaning there's no misunderstanding left so we may agree to disagree now and part our ways.

Shougun did give a perfectly fine response, and we don't even necessarily disagree with each other. Under normal conditions the tank classes are pretty well balanced; I've said as much multiple times in this thread. Paladins having the option to weather worst case scenarios by sacrificing damage is something I feel like all tanks should have though. It's kind of absurd to just give it to Paladins.

Healers can heal through pretty much anything by sacrificing damage. Skilled tanks should be able to tank through pretty much anything as well. Paladins can; DRK's can't.

[GucciSan]

Shougun did give a perfectly fine response, and we don't even necessarily disagree with each other. Under normal conditions the tank classes are pretty well balanced; I've said as much multiple times in this thread. Paladins having the option to weather worst case scenarios by sacrificing damage is something I feel like all tanks should have though. It's kind of absurd to just give it to Paladins.

Healers can heal through pretty much anything by sacrificing damage. Skilled tanks should be able to tank through pretty much anything as well. Paladins can; DRK's can't.

Healers healing through anything is really the point of them being healers. That's pretty much what they're designed to do.

But it's important that each Job have their respective reason for playing them. PLD has Clemency, and DRK has TBN. It's very obvious from this thread that you clearly like PLD more than DRK because it has Clemency. A spammable self-sustain is what PLD is known for and if every tank had something similar then PLD wouldn't be that special anymore.