Big pulls with Dark Knight.

[Goji1639]

I've been playing Paladin a lot recently and decided to switch back to my Dark Knight for some 80 dungeons, and I feel like Dark Knights are TERRIBLE at handling big pulls.

My routine is to immediately pop arms length and TBN, and TBN is eaten through in like 1 second. Since TBN is basically our entire defensive tool kit I have to almost immediately also pop shadow wall, rampart, Abysal Drain, etc. just to keep myself alive for the next 14 seconds until TBN is back. Then once that TBN gets eaten I'm helpless, so everything better be pretty close to dead.

Now obviously a good healer can keep you up well enough, but with my Paladin the healer barely mattered. I could keep myself up for a good 30 seconds easily with only a couple of CDs, Sheltron and clemency while the healer figured out where his heal button was. With my Dark Knight I don't even want to pull big in randoms. Am I not playing the class right is it really just that squishy?

[Recon1o6]

Its not squishy, its that paladin has clemency, you said it yourself. 2/3 clemencies are a new hp bar. In addition, PLD has the most defence of every job and an auto block that negates 20% of damage whereas DRK lost its parry rate buffs

Clemency is so powerful that a paladin can solo duties every other job in the game cannot purely because of that one skill

Drk is also the only tank without a reliable self heal. GNB has aurora, WAR has a self cure and bloodbath nascent flash and lots of aoes
Drk's always been more suited to tanking bosses, TBN is fantastic as it just flat out breaks tankbusters and its valuable for saving folks that just got rezzed or vuln stacks.

[Goji1639]

Well, it kind of is squishy. No reliable self healing plus weak passive mitigation = squishy. I will admit TBN is great for Tank Busters, but it seems to suck for everything else. I'd even argue Sheltron is a better ability overall because it doesn't use MP and lasts it's full duration no matter how much damage you take. Clemency is pretty busted.

DRK is just disappointing I guess, compared to Paladin at least. I was kind of hoping I was just missing something.

[TouchandFeel]

If you are not pairing TBN with Shadow Wall, Rampart, and your other major defensive abilities during big pulls on DRK, you are not using the ability the way you should. You pair TBN with your other defensive abilities, especially the % damage reduction ones, because they complement each other. The % damage reduction abilities will reduce the amount of damage that the TBN shield is taking, therefore getting more out of it.
Abilities like Arms Length, while they should be used as part of your defenses, don't have the same collaborative effect and are better paired with an additional damage reduction ability and TBN.

Also, why would you be using pretty much your weakest defensive ability up front? The beginning of the fight against a large pack of mobs is when you will be taking the most damage because the entire pack is hitting you and none of the enemies have been killed off. You need to be using your stronger defensive abilities at the points when you will be taking the largest amount of damage and then step down from there, pairing lesser defensives with lesser incoming damage.

As for self-healing, big pulls are the one place that Abyssal Drain can actually be a better self-heal ability than the other tank equivalents, NF not withstanding as that is a completely different kettle of fish. As long as there are over 6 enemies being hit, which can be quite often. The only place that DRK self-healing is less effective than other tanks is in single enemy fights like boss fights.

[SamRF]

What are you talking about. DRK has TBN as well as Abyssal Drain, after Warrior the best tank for pulls when it comes to mitigation for sure.

You should never use Clemency as PLD, if you have to, it means you can't actually handle the pull. Especially at level 80..

[Goji1639]

What are you talking about. DRK has TBN as well as Abyssal Drain, after Warrior the best tank for pulls when it comes to mitigation for sure.

You should never use Clemency as PLD, if you have to, it means you can't actually handle the pull. Especially at level 80..

TBN is terrible with big pulls, and Abyssal Drain is good but compared to Clemency it's nothing.

Also, saying you should never use Clemency is completely ridiculous. I can tank through even the absolute worst PUG healers with Clemency; it's the single greatest tanking tool in the game when it comes to roulettes. Sure it's a DPS loss if you have a good healer, but in a typical group not wiping on a big pull is way more important than getting an extra cast or 2 during req.

[SamRF]

TBN is terrible with big pulls, and Abyssal Drain is good but compared to Clemency it's nothing.

Also, saying you should never use Clemency is completely ridiculous. I can tank through even the absolute worst PUG healers with Clemency; it's the single greatest tanking tool in the game when it comes to roulettes. Sure it's a DPS loss if you have a good healer, but in a typical group not wiping on a big pull is way more important than getting an extra cast or 2 during req.

How do you know which of the abundance of oGCDs the healer has isn't available to use when you're using or casting clemency? Maybe the reason healers don't heal you is because you're using Clemency for no good reason. Some healers are comfortable with letting your HP drop low before casting their over powered oGCDs.

I've tanked plenty of lvl 80 dungeons as PLD, have always pulled wall to wall and I have never used clemency once, don't remember wiping once.

[Goji1639]

How do you know which of the abundance of oGCDs the healer has isn't available to use when you're using or casting clemency? Maybe the reason healers don't heal you is because you're using Clemency for no good reason. Some healers are comfortable with letting your HP drop low before casting their over powered oGCDs.

I've tanked plenty of lvl 80 dungeons as PLD, have always pulled wall to wall and I have never used clemency once, don't remember wiping once.

When I'm a Paladin I'll generally pop my invulnerability before touching Clemency when my HP gets really low. Then I'll wait the 10 seconds and see if I get healed. At about 2 seconds left I'll pop more CDs and Clemency myself, and from that point on Clemency is in play for the entirety of the run. Clemency ends up in play for a notable amount of runs.

I'm not saying you should just spam Clemency for fun, but avoiding using the absolute best defensive tool in your kit just to get an extra couple casts out of Req is ridiculous. You're not a DPS and there's no enrage timer you're trying to beat.

[Xtrasweettea]

TBN is terrible with big pulls […]

TBN is very good for big pulls. How you start your CD usage and your current gear and accessory setup will dictate how long TBN will stay up. If you are near the minimal ilevel for the dungeons, TBN won’t last that long at the start of the actual tanking phase of the big pull (once you hit that wall and enemies have all gathered around you). As you start gearing up and getting closer to where your gear could potentially be synced, you will notice the first TBN will last longer.

I tank on DRK very often in dungeons. I average two TBNs a pull. The second TBN often times gets close to not breaking. I am also gear synced for all level 80 and Expert dungeons that force a gear sync.

[Goji1639]

TBN is very good for big pulls. How you start your CD usage and your current gear and accessory setup will dictate how long TBN will stay up. If you are near the minimal ilevel for the dungeons, TBN won’t last that long at the start of the actual tanking phase of the big pull (once you hit that wall and enemies have all gathered around you). As you start gearing up and getting closer to where your gear could potentially be synced, you will notice the first TBN will last longer.

I tank on DRK very often in dungeons. I average two TBNs a pull. The second TBN often times gets close to not breaking. I am also gear synced for all level 80 and Expert dungeons that force a gear sync.

I mean overgeared; good healer; good DPS you probably don't even need a tank in a lot of content. I feel like a good tank class is defined by how it performs in suboptimal conditions. If I ever want to run a quick comparison I usually just wall to wall pull with a Trust to simulate a mediocre PuG. The Paladin holds up beautifully no matter how bad the DPS is or how thoroughly the healer ignores me. Dark Knight gets absolutely slaughtered; once TBN disappears the class is just a massive ball of squish with no reliable self-healing.