Final Fantasy XIV’s healer problem and how it’s kind of unsolvable

[Side-Eye]

Meanwhile the DPS themselves that are the recipients of these buffs are more than happy to just get a flat damage buff, and it causes far less controversy.

It is this mentality that WRECKED heal jobs. Nerfs should never happen because of a perceived imbalance -- especially when balance was actually there.

I've explained on these boards before, that the toxicity I've received from using the wrong cards on the wrong jobs, even accidentally, has far outweighed anything else I've ever had to deal with in this game. This has been removed with this new card system.
Meanwhile the best healing experience I've ever had in this game, was leveling AST from 70 to 80 in the first 2 weeks of Shadowbringers, before they received buffs in 5.01.

Sorry your feelings were hurt, but now an entire heal job has been hurt -- and if you've bothered to read the hundreds of posts from those who played/mained astro, you would know that the current card system is *not* satisfactory nor satisfying. What DPS jobs "perceive" should NEVER be the deciding factor over which abilities stay, go, or get adjusted. If devs are too lazy to test for the actual numbers, they should be a little more involved in these forums to see what the players see after extensively testing themselves, in a full variety of content.

[Kabooa]

It is this mentality that WRECKED heal jobs. Nerfs should never happen because of a perceived imbalance -- especially when balance was actually there.

Isn't it fortunate that the imbalance wasn't just perceived then?

[ForteNightshade]

And if you didn't draw them when you needed them? What then?

You adjusted? That was the entire point of Astro, and what many people enjoyed. It requirement adjustment based on RNG. While the system was far from perfect, it offered a unique gameplay instead of the more homogenized mess all three healers have largely become.

Why scrap the whole system when you could just improve upon it? Adding abilities that allow you to somewhat mitigate that RNG isn't discrediting the system itself but simply adding flavor. Furthermore, it fit the Time Mage aspect—which is something else people liked about Astro that was more or less stripped away.

As for the rest of your post on the dps cards... I simply don't agree.
Choosing between Ranged/Melee is no better or worse than choosing the jobs that better suit Speed/Crit/Flat Damage.

Perhaps it 'felt' better because you have it in your head that they do different things. And I suppose there is something to that, it's job fantasy, like using white magic or black magic even if they both just deal the same damage in the end. I don't completely discount the value of aesthetics.
But functionally, you as the AST don't feel the effects of the cards, you don't feel the extra speed from Arrow, or the extra Crit from Spear, you just 'know' that's what their effects are. Meanwhile the DPS themselves that are the recipients of these buffs are more than happy to just get a flat damage buff, and it causes far less controversy.

Feel goes a long way into what makes people enjoy the job they're playing. Why do you think there is so much opposition to combo consolidation? Pressing 123 isn't more skillful than 111 but the latter feels more boring, thus the push back. A big complaint regarding tanks and healers right now is their homogenized. None of them feel different despite all being functionally "balanced."

Putting that said, I found it more interesting to consider things like Crit and Speed because it required more knowledge on how the jobs and stats functioned. It also had a more multi-purpose use. If the Bard's sitting in Army's, that Spear is going to be better on the Monk or Dragoon. The current system is largely brainless. Going back to the comp I listed earlier of SAM/DRG/DNC/SMN. Your thought process is:

Are we doing openers? If yes, use on Dragoon. If no, use on Samurai.
Does the Samurai already have a melee card? If no, use on Samurai. If yes, use on Dragoon.

I find that a lot less engaging than having to know how Crit influences certain jobs. Although, I suppose we lost that aspect too.

[Rai_Takara]

Yes, while there's a variety of content, not just raids, raids are what's the most important in terms of balance (Savage and Ultimate). Effects from just that content trickle down to everyone else and suddenly you find certain jobs being omitted for being sub-optimal even if they are viable.

With respect to AST, it's interesting to see what the devs will do. Considering criticism, the devs have stayed their course in 5.2, so they believe that the current AST is fine. Maybe 5.3 will be different, but I'd be very surprised to see them do anything besides minor potency adjustments.

I will say, I think people should temper their expectations for 6.0. I don't believe we'll see anything different even with a 4th healer. If they aren't a SCH reskin, it'll be another WHM reskin. That's not necessarily a bad thing but I worry that people expect a 4th healer will somehow "fix" healers. That ship was 5.0 and it has sailed.

Putting that said, I found it more interesting to consider things like Crit and Speed because it required more knowledge on how the jobs and stats functioned. It also had a more multi-purpose use. If the Bard's sitting in Army's, that Spear is going to be better on the Monk or Dragoon. The current system is largely brainless. Going back to the comp I listed earlier of SAM/DRG/DNC/SMN. Your thought process is:

Are we doing openers? If yes, use on Dragoon. If no, use on Samurai.
Does the Samurai already have a melee card? If no, use on Samurai. If yes, use on Dragoon.

I find that a lot less engaging than having to know how Crit influences certain jobs. Although, I suppose we lost that aspect too.

To be fair, turning into a lord or lady was far more consistent than playing the spear if you already had an AoE royal road lined up. Now with it being single target, Spear was just a less potent balance, but you used the same ideology on who to give it to.

Touching up on AST recently, it feels the same as SB and HW except less frustrating because RNG can't swing as low as it used to.

[Crushnight]

Yes, while there's a variety of content, not just raids, raids are what's the most important in terms of balance (Savage and Ultimate). Effects from just that content trickle down to everyone else and suddenly you find certain jobs being omitted for being sub-optimal even if they are viable.

With respect to AST, it's interesting to see what the devs will do. Considering criticism, the devs have stayed their course in 5.2, so they believe that the current AST is fine. Maybe 5.3 will be different, but I'd be very surprised to see them do anything besides minor potency adjustments.

I will say, I think people should temper their expectations for 6.0. I don't believe we'll see anything different even with a 4th healer. If they aren't a SCH reskin, it'll be another WHM reskin. That's not necessarily a bad thing but I worry that people expect a 4th healer will somehow "fix" healers. That ship was 5.0 and it has sailed.



To be fair, turning into a lord or lady was far more consistent than playing the spear if you already had an AoE royal road lined up. Now with it being single target, Spear was just a less potent balance, but you used the same ideology on who to give it to.

Touching up on AST recently, it feels the same as SB and HW except less frustrating because RNG can't swing as low as it used to.

Afraid them staying the course in 5.2 means nothing, they stayed the course for all of HW with bowmage, they stayed the course of old Ast for HW+SB, it will be 6.0 that will determine if the new card system is here to stay or not. Just like it will be 6.0 if current healer design remains or if they will change.

[Rai_Takara]

Afraid them staying the course in 5.2 means nothing, they stayed the course for all of HW with bowmage, they stayed the course of old Ast for HW+SB, it will be 6.0 that will determine if the new card system is here to stay or not. Just like it will be 6.0 if current healer design remains or if they will change.

That's true. However, bow mage was a different circumstance, imo. People didn't really complain about it and it was more of a thing the devs wanted to try. Problem with the old cards is there were complaints against it. That's why they had to change them from the get go, not that they did it for the sake of it.

I can see them potentially changing cards in 6.0 but I don't think it will be going back to the old system if they do. It will be yet another new system, but to some, anything is better than the current one. Similarly, I highly doubt they will change healers much, if at all, considering this expansion was their chance and this is what they came up with. Which is more of the same, except removing DPS tools. Will they add more DPS or utility management for healers in the future? Possibly. Will they redesign how healer plays in general? Near zero chance.

[AnotherPerson]

I can see them potentially changing cards in 6.0 but I don't think it will be going back to the old system if they do. It will be yet another new system, but to some, anything is better than the current one. Similarly, I highly doubt they will change healers much, if at all, considering this expansion was their chance and this is what they came up with. Which is more of the same, except removing DPS tools. Will they add more DPS or utility management for healers in the future? Possibly. Will they redesign how healer plays in general? Near zero chance.

There were complaints with the old cards because Balance was fished and used more often in relative comparison to resource-efficiency of the other cards. Making all cards a Balance doesn't address the issue, because now you have a whole system designed for fishing Balance. They could have adjusted the system where Balance isn't the most powerful card. Granted, the previous system left RNG too much randomness and the devs probably didn't know what to replace the card effects like Spire with. Honestly, they could've just made Spire an -x stack- instant cast with -% mana mitigation- effect and it would still be useful for weaving when Lightspeed is down and used for raising.

Preferably though, if they plan on making the card system so prevalent and important to the job's core identity - I rather see the draw skill turn into 3 different buttons, replace Undraw and Redraw for them so you get 50% RNG to draw the card you want (separated by seals) where all cards act as a support/resource buff in some way. Then move the damage mechanic elsewhere so people won't complain about AST's unstable rDPS. Sleeve draw can stay as it is and become a random draw (hence the name "sleeve" draw), but you can see what 3 cards you're going to draw in the gauge in advance to prevent tunnel vision syndrome and yet still leave a RNG aspect and weaving aspect.

I highly doubt they won't redesign how healers play in general - SCH are complaining heavily about their loss of DPS kit which was well designed. Both WHM and SCH doesn't have a system that takes the focus of pressing one DPS button away from the game. ASTs have a special case because the card system was designed in mind to be watching other players and figuring out when you should be giving a buff, when they were making mistakes that you can mitigate with your cards, etc. It took away the focus of spamming Malefic as much and put Malefic in the background focus that you do to keep yourself from idling while putting the card system in front. The Lily system and aetherflow system does not do that. They are simply tools that you use for healing which can be built up or swapped for damage. There's no other focus the player can swap to, which makes spamming glare/broil heavily noticeable in contrast.

Healers should be getting the DPS rotations back - I don't understand why it is thought that healers cannot do complex DPS rotations. They're players like the rest of the DPS. It makes no sense to think Ninja, SMN, and BLM can have such a complex rotation, but healers cannot do the same to a lesser extent while weaving oGCD healing skills like an oGCD damaging skill. It just boggles the mind. Damage doesn't come out that fast in the game, and if it does then healers can forgo DPSing. Just lowering the number of options that a healer CAN have when performing well is a bad idea. Just take a look at the AST's card variety and the complaints there. The current system is good balance wise - but the lack of variety and options made players complain in general because it took away options that CAN make the experience of a healer more enjoyable. I expect there will be one healer that gets changed (probably AST) that will get more buffs, but keep its current paradigm because it works well with it due to the existence of the card system. The others could have their DPS rotations to make their gameplay unique and give more of a challenge for healers who can handle a more complex job.

Here's something I realized - Incoming damage at SB Shrinyu was actually at a good place. There was a decent amount of incoming damage and the amount kept healers on their toes while giving ample downtime. Considering how there would be healers, who for some reason, can't DPS (or won't DPS) and heal at the same time because they can't multi-task without stressing themselves too much, adding more incoming damage actually would be counter-intuitive if SE wants those healers to heal better because those healers would just be stressed all the time in contrast to the downtime we already have. At that point it's best to just take advantage of downtime by making it less of a chore to play in spamming one button over and over again for those who can multi-task. It'll raise the ceiling of healer gameplay without punishing healers who can't rise to the challenge (since SE believes healer DPS is optional), but still keep the game difficult for those healers since outgoing damage is already a challenge for them to keep up with.

[Irenia]

With the multiple times Yoshi P says things like "I think the healer jobs should focus on healing", I believe that whatever comes down the pipe, it will on the surface level seem to support a reactive healing playstyle, for the kinds of players who don't want to DPS because they want to jump in with a clutch heal if things go wrong. Even if high level play requires DPS, the zero DPS healer should get no flak in the eyes of SE. And the healer design reflects this.

If they can figure out a way to make healer DPS interesting, while simultaneously making it seem like these healers are made for healing, I have no doubt they will do that. I have no official word from the team, this is simply something I believe after looking at the events and evidence. Take this with as much salt as you like.

[Rai_Takara]

I highly doubt they won't redesign how healers play in general - SCH are complaining heavily about their loss of DPS kit which was well designed. Both WHM and SCH doesn't have a system that takes the focus of pressing one DPS button away from the game. ASTs have a special case because the card system was designed in mind to be watching other players and figuring out when you should be giving a buff, when they were making mistakes that you can mitigate with your cards, etc. It took away the focus of spamming Malefic as much and put Malefic in the background focus that you do to keep yourself from idling while putting the card system in front. The Lily system and aetherflow system does not do that. They are simply tools that you use for healing which can be built up or swapped for damage. There's no other focus the player can swap to, which makes spamming glare/broil heavily noticeable in contrast.

This part isn't necessarily related to healing though. That being said, even with the cards, AST still comes down to Malefic spam. At the end of the day, that is how healers are envisioned in this game and also why I can't see them changing their "formula" again because ShB was their chance to nail it down forever so that next expansion they can add another healer to fit in with that formula.

[finnegandadaeon]

[QUOTE=Rai_Takara;5362286]I will say, I think people should temper their expectations for 6.0. I don't believe we'll see anything different even with a 4th healer. If they aren't a SCH reskin, it'll be another WHM reskin. That's not necessarily a bad thing but I worry that people expect a 4th healer will somehow "fix" healers. That ship was 5.0 and it has sailed.


I agree with u, also I probably think the new healer won’t be anything really “new” I bet we’ll receive a geomancer created with the ast nocturnal mechanics and a buff system somehow similar to the old card system but with sygils or any kinda of lore they ll want to introduce.
Actually nocturnal ast is kinda a 4th healer (is not even similar to what actually scholar is and u can’t play it like a scholar ).