Big pulls with Dark Knight.

[Goji1639]

Well you should have made your point more clear then because this is what people were reading:

My point is that they're bad relative to Paladins, which didn't require much reading to see.

I never said they can't mass pull; most of the content is scaled so low compared to the gear ilvl it allows everyone can mass pull. DRKs are just bad at it in relative terms.

So in other words you are activating all your defensives at the same time and then you wonder why you are helpless afterwards? That's not how you play DRK (or any tank).

I'm not helpless on the initial pull; I'm helpless if the fight drags on too long and I run out of CDs. As a Paladin I'm helpless never.

[TheRealQuah]

All I'm reading in this thread from the OP is "I'm a bad player, and when I get matched with a bad healer, PLD is better because I can spam clemency"

When confronted with overwhelming evidence to the contrary of their opinion, they just ignore it. Hence either bad player or troll.

[Goji1639]

lol, just terrible.

When matched with a bad healer, bad DPS, bad group, etc. Paladin is better because you can spam Clemency. That's just a fact. That only 1 tank class has the versatility to adapt to seriously bad groups to that degree is lame, but if that doesn't bother any of you it's completely fine with me. I'll just play Paladin and leave the other tanks alone.

Now what I'd like to see is more insecure people using this opportunity to flex and/or call me bad. It's been really useful so far.

[Hierro]

Now what I'd like to see is more insecure people using this opportunity to flex and/or call me bad. It's been really useful so far.

So let me get this straight: When you're facing difficulties with DRK, it's because the job (and every other tank apparently) is flawed for lack of clemency. When others who face the same situation of the "bad healer, bad dps, bad group, etc.," and they're able to perform or even excel, it's not to point out flaws in your gameplay or arguments, it's because they wanna flex. Am I reading that correctly?

[Shougun]

When matched with a bad healer, bad DPS, bad group, etc. Paladin is better because you can spam Clemency. That's just a fact. That only 1 tank class has the versatility to adapt to seriously bad groups to that degree is lame, but if that doesn't bother any of you it's completely fine with me. I'll just play Paladin and leave the other tanks alone.

Each tank has something that keeps it unique, Paladin's is enhanced stability through support (which actually costs him, cover costing sheltron, clemency costing damage). Yet if you were grinding to the metal you might find Warrior's tank buster super helpful, or DRK and their magic resist both having pretty neat aoe healing that is also damage.

If all the tanks do all the tasks exactly the same it'll make them less interesting. Yes if you want to do casual content with bad groups Paladin is probably a good choice, but even that isn't exclusively Paladin as the other tanks can do some pretty nice solo moments too (it just happens Paladin does 'group support during a train wreck' the best). Casting clemency is almost always a flag that something really bad happened, and under normal circumstances is a bad choice unlike using your self heals that other tanks have (that Paladin don't get to use). You happen to like the spice Paladin has.. and that's okay but I don't think it would be that exciting to strip Paladin of it by taking it away or sharing it with all the other jobs.

In terms of big pulls the other tanks, not Paladin, actually have better optimal sustain as they can do it while also doing damage unlike Paladin. Something is quite wrong if you've got to cast clemency frequently, even as someone who loves Paladin I almost never get to use it (when I do it's because of some extreme issue, and that's the cost/benefit of the skill- personally would like to get to use it more without it being unoptimal but I think we'll need an expansion to balance out that change and keep all the tanks identities).

[Goji1639]

So let me get this straight: When you're facing difficulties with DRK, it's because the job (and every other tank apparently) is flawed for lack of clemency. When others who face the same situation of the "bad healer, bad dps, bad group, etc.," and they're able to perform or even excel, it's not to point out flaws in your gameplay or arguments, it's because they wanna flex. Am I reading that correctly?

I've said several times already that I'm aware it's possible to pull big with DRKs, or ANY tank in the hilariously scaled down dungeons you're all running. So yes, your pointless anecdotes are just you trying to flex.

Now the point I'm making is that DRK's sustainability is really bad compared to Paladin, and for no reason. Paladin having 10x the sustainability of DRK isn't "flavor," it's just flat out superiority. It's an option all tanks should have.

[Goji1639]

In terms of big pulls the other tanks, not Paladin, actually have better optimal sustain as they can do it while also doing damage unlike Paladin. Something is quite wrong if you've got to cast clemency frequently, even as someone who loves Paladin I almost never get to use it (when I do it's because of some extreme issue, and that's the cost/benefit of the skill- personally would like to get to use it more without it being unoptimal but I think we'll need an expansion to balance out that change and keep all the tanks identities).

In a good group Paladins will be able to sustain optimal DPS and ignore Clemency. They have superior passive mitigation, Sheltron they can spam using a completely separate resource, the best invulnerability of all the tanks, etc. In a good group things are balanced between the tanks. Paladins can just hold out exponentially longer in a bad group by sacrificing damage; it's a fantastic option all tanks should have and only Paladins have it. It's kind of dumb.

[Shougun]

In a good group Paladins will be able to sustain optimal DPS and ignore Clemency. They have superior passive mitigation, Sheltron they can spam using a completely separate resource, the best invulnerability of all the tanks, etc. In a good group things are balanced between the tanks. Paladins can just hold out exponentially longer in a bad group by sacrificing damage; it's a fantastic option all tanks should have and only Paladins have it. It's kind of dumb.

Lower cooldown invulnerability is better if you're planning with other skilled players / planning around it, than the long cooldown (Warrior's is the shortest, Paladin's the longest). Paladin's is only seen as the best because casual players will go "oh wow, you lose no life using that!?!" but if you planned heals around using it for patricular moves then knowing your tank can't die to a tank buster and not bothering to heal until after it goes is quite a nice feature (casual not used as an insult, just referring to players playing different content / styles). This is where for example DRK can be seen as interesting as it technically lasts a long while and has a shorter cooldown, with the trigger period where it doesn't start until you died and then after you died you have a period where you still can't die (although I still feel like it could be made a little more friendly, yet it still has it's unique characteristic).

Paladin has passive mitigation but the other tanks have self healing that they can use in battle without killing their own damage which helps balance that (self heal in their combos, vampire heals, heals that are oGCD, shield, etc).

Other tanks can hold out for a long time depending on the boss and not sacrifice their damage (like I know warrior can solo a lot of casual bosses, so long as the boss has dodge-able AoEs mixed in to give a breather), just that Paladin can drop all their damage and help out their group for a long time. It is a fantastic option, I don't think it's a fantastic option all tanks should have to have especially as it's based around your group doing terribly lol.

Like Red Mage and SMN get raise doesn't mean BLM has to get it. That Red Mage has such an awesome cure makes them really solid choice for solo, but that doesn't mean the other jobs have to have solid cures- it really makes Red Mage feel special that it has that choice. Paladin might not be able to anti-buster every buster like Warrior but they can dig deep and temporarily become secondary healer, it makes Paladin special- like warrior is special that it can face buster most busters due to the lower cooldown.

[Goji1639]

Being useful in all situations is better than being useful in an extremely limited set of pre-planned situations. DRKs invulnerability is terrible, there's really no way to rationalize around that. DRKs passive mitigation is also bad; the combo self-heal doesn't sustain you unless you SEVERELY outgear the content. DRK basically lives and dies by TBN, which is only good sustain in a big pull if you have other CDs to pair with it. Otherwise it disappears too fast, where abilities like Sheltron keep their entire duration no matter how much damage you take.

Beyond that, things like SMN being the only DPS class to have a revive has always been a point of contention. Handing an awesome utility to only 1 DPS class and not giving the other DPS classes something to counterbalance it is TERRIBLE design.

[Shougun]

Being useful in all situations is better than being useful in an extremely limited set of pre-planned situations. DRKs invulnerability is terrible, there's really no way to rationalize around that. DRKs passive mitigation is also bad; the combo self-heal doesn't sustain you unless you SEVERELY outgear the content. DRK basically lives and dies by TBN, which is only good sustain in a big pull if you have other CDs to pair with it. Otherwise it disappears too fast, where abilities like Sheltron keep their entire duration no matter how much damage you take.

Beyond that, things like SMN being the only DPS class to have a revive has always been a point of contention. Handing an awesome utility to only 1 DPS class and not giving the other DPS classes something to counterbalance it is TERRIBLE design.

This is the whole yin yang of homogenization / being unique. Right now all the tanks can do their job and deal pretty similar damage and they still have a few one off differences. You call it terrible but I'd call it terrible to make them so similar there is no reason but colors to call them different.

Paladin is supposed to be the consistent rock, while the other tanks branch out a bit spreading their allocations of balance in slightly different ways so they do something better and something worse than the other tanks while Paladin is just consistent and straight forward. Don't trust your healer? Fine. But if you did trust your healer and especially if you had a white mage then DRK anti-buster is pretty good (though I still feel it's weird to say "if you have a white mage" lol.. it could be made a bit more friendly in some way). Want to cheese every buster, just go warrior, magic damage gotta have DRK, etc (but all of them can do all the content even though they've minor differences).

Obviously we're not going to agree, but I definitely hope SE doesn't make everything so similar that it's just different colors of the same thing. People already felt they did that too much for ShB, I personally thought they did pretty good but should be really really careful about that moving forward (tank damage balance right now is really good for example, when playing optimally they're all really close to each other- which means Paladin using even a single clemency is playing unoptimally and going to hit that damage hard and bring them out of the ranking showing the cost / benefit of that skill).