Final Fantasy XIV’s healer problem and how it’s kind of unsolvable

[Seraphor]

I don't think most healers would mind having less dps if they were given tools to increase the party's total dps (Read: Proper SUPPORT skills). You know, like the AST cards that were taken away. . .

Perhaps instead of taking away that interesting gameplay from AST, it should have been expanded to the other two.

Can't be balanced.

If you have viable support skills like The Bole or Ewer, then either it becomes an essential part of their skillset, in which case being on RNG is a massive problem, or it becomes inconsequential fluff, which is what it was.

[Ceasaria]

The old cards system was balanced around 3 offensive cards and 3 non-offensive cards.
Some were more desirable than other, but it was really up to the player to decide how he wanted to play depending of many factors as Content, party composition, player mindset (preferences) and what's happening right now in the fight.

Contrary to any other job system, AST couldn't plan exactly everything.
The objective was to use the best appropriate card at the right moment, and to achieve that you had to control the best you can and fast you can the RNG.

You may not like it, but it was not designed to be a 100% predictible system, which was unique compared to the others jobs.
You could adapt to some tough situations by giving a Bole or a Ewer if needed.
And, because of that, this unpredictive system was for me light years ahead from any other jobs.
The richness and depth of the old system gave me pleasure for more than thousand hours during SB in a various of contents.
I was still learning many things across the months because like I said, it was played differently with the plethore of parameters to take into account (+ adjustements with patches).

Not only that, but it had synergy with time abilities too, which enforced the depth of the job.

One of the strong consequence of this system (and unique once again), is I was never bored, ever, because each content, each fight felt different. The RNG of the cards system allowed this.

The cards system could have been balanced by tweaking values, for exemple Balance reduced to 6% mono, 3% AOE (to give more room to Spear and Arrow), Spire could have been replaced.
And if we wanted to have a bit more predictivity, adding one or more skills allowing to control more the RNG would have been a good option.

I was always thinking the old cards system as Yu-Gi-Oh, but it's sure the new card system is no more like that, but more like a traditionnal card game as War, you know a card game where you have nothing to do, no decision making, no depth, etc.

So, please stop to reject with hate the old card system because you had very unpleasant moments during your journey in HW and SB (from what I have read on another thread)

Seraphor, It was just not a system for you !

[Seraphor]

And please, try not to reject all criticism of the old card system, just because you liked it.
This place is enough of an echo chamber as it is.

[Crushnight]

And please, try not to reject all criticism of the old card system, just because you liked it.
This place is enough of an echo chamber as it is.

Yea i'm not going to sit here and say old system didn't have flaws, biggest one is consistentcy(other flaws include 2 chances to get what want, Lord/Lady were a coin flip on top of dice roll rather than set like now, Noct being Noct) but they could've been ways to mitigate it more without flinging whole thing out, Dnc's dance steps show a way to let Ast have an ability to pick exactly what card they want, could've been on a 2 min cd, this mitigates the can't draw bole when it might be useful or balance when it's best etc.

The old system wasn't impossible to balance it was just harder, too hard for the developers to deal with.

I mean what's harder to balance a 5 Dot healer + 3 Dot healer + 1 Dot healer or 3 1 Dot healers.

They took the easy way out across the board with healers, dealing with balancing 2 fairies with different buffs which offer different degrees of usefulness, too difficult, a single fairy set of abilities much easier, 6 different card buffs, whoa I need Einstein levels of intelligence to balance that, 1 simple consistent buff, ah much easier, aoe DoTs becomes nightmare to balance in multi target fights, better get rid of them.

Am I jaded? yes, yes I am, and it is because they won't talk about it I want to understand their mentality not guess at what they want/wanted saying but what about people who like it now explains nothing about why.

[Crushnight]

So, please stop to reject with hate the old card system because you had very unpleasant moments during your journey in HW and SB (from what I have read on another thread)

Seraphor, It was just not a system for you !

I don't blame Seraphor for defending the new system, he enjoys it and it is a discussion so he is welcome to chime in where ever he wants, I just butt heads with him due to the language he uses at points.

I.E. the it's impossible to balance old system is incorrect, it was just harder.

But also have to put in his shoes slightly, the new system is divisive and people are more likely to say stuff when something upsets them so when it comes to feedback on it when the majority of vocal people say negative feedback it gets a bit iffy whether or not SE will listen to them, i'm sure lovers bow mage can attest to that on the lead up to SB, so getting out positive feedback is needed or a system may change for the worse for those that like it.

Mnk is more unanimously disliked atm than Ast is but Ast is still up there with Bow mage and ShB sch. Question is what would SE take on board the silent people who are enjoying the changes or the vocal negative, we won't know the answer until April/May next year at the earliest (most likely later due to Convid delay and everything) when media embargo starts being lifted for 6.0

[Risvertasashi]

i'm sure lovers bow mage can attest to that on the lead up to SB, so getting out positive feedback is needed or a system may change for the worse for those that like it.

While I'm not on the forums 100% of the time... and yes bow mage did have defenders (mostly of the 'git gud' variety)... When SB rolled around I never saw anyone going "Nooo give me back my cast times and limited mobility and GCD clipping!". Even if there was a thread or two, they certainly weren't popping up later, and you don't see them popping now.

Whereas we're about a year into ShB and we still have people that want the old card system back. A significant number of people that are active here on the forums. (Though I also think that if it were reverted, we'd see complaints about RNG not giving people Balance once again too)

So basically, I don't think the two situations are really comparable.

[Tulzscha]

Can't be balanced.

If you have viable support skills like The Bole or Ewer, then either it becomes an essential part of their skillset, in which case being on RNG is a massive problem, or it becomes inconsequential fluff, which is what it was.

What about something in between? Saaayy Redrawing guarantees a card with a different symbol, or being able to lock out cards you don't foresee a use for?

[Risvertasashi]

What about something in between? Saaayy Redrawing guarantees a card with a different symbol, or being able to lock out cards you don't foresee a use for?

This is one change that was actually made.

There was a time where redrawing could give you the exact same card. Unfettered RNG. After much feedback, SE changed this so that redraw would guarantee a different card.

Basic problem still applies, though. Most high end players just fished for Balance. Even if you did want a Bole for a tankbuster or such, you couldn't reliably get it.

If you give the ability to lock out cards, you might as well just let the AST pick what they want. Or do what SE did and just homogenize the cards.

[Seraphor]

What about something in between? Saaayy Redrawing guarantees a card with a different symbol, or being able to lock out cards you don't foresee a use for?

If the RNG system requires tools to remove all of the RNG, then what is the point?

This is my main issue.

The old system was all fishing for Balances, that was the optimum way to play it, and everyone wanted tools to manipulate the RNG so that you could more reliably fish for Balances.

Spire was exclusively Royal Road. Bole was redrawn, always. Ewer was Royal Road or occasionally used on yourself for MP. (because AST is seemingly always starved for MP, but that's another issue)
These were your 'modifying' cards, to draw a comparison to the current system, they were your seals that feed Divination (your AoE buff)

The three DPS cards were unbalanced but for the sake of this argument (and not repeating past ones) lets just say they were different cards for different targets. Arrow was for BLM/SAM or next best fit, Spear was for BRD/MNK or next best fit, and Balance was for anyone or your best DPS.
This boils down to being presented with an option, and then applying it to the correct target. This is no different to the current system, except that your options and targets have changed, from: BLM/SAM or BRD/MNK or Best DPS ...to: Ranged or Melee.
Each card you draw requires you to identify the card, identify the target, and use it on that target, in each system.

The main functional differences between these systems is that:
1. The new system gives more consistent output. Instead of other party members getting different buffs that moderate their DPS in different ways, they all get a flat damage increase.
2. You are applying weaker buffs twice as frequently.

The first of those I actually prefer, because it means the party don't need to get involved in your job mechanics, it is your responsibility, there's no BLM whining that he didn't get an Arrow, no BRD complaining that the MNK got the Spear, everyone just goes with the flow.
The second is the real problem as far as I'm concerned, it's why AST's now have carpal tunnel.
and I would solve it as follows:


Individual cards need to be more effective, and we need to reduce the amount of times we’re targeting different players.

Card Effects:
Play Effect: Increases damage dealt by a party member or self by 10% if target is [melee/ranged] DPS or [tank/healer], or 5% for all other roles. Duration: 15s
Minor Arcana Effect: Grants a [Lunar/Solar/Celestial] Seal when used in combat.
The same as they are now, but at just under double potency and without the seal on regular play, because Minor Arcana no longer grants the more powerful effect, instead it only applies the seal, and therefore does not require a target.
So you are choosing between the buff, OR the seal, you don't get both.

Minor Arcana: Grants the drawn card’s associated Seal and triggers the effect of Lord of Crowns when Balance, Arrow, or Spear, or the Lady of Crowns when Bole, Ewer, or Spire.
Lord of Crowns: Restores 400 MP +400 more MP if in Nocturnal stance (because Nocturnal is more MP intensive)
Lady of Crowns: Restores 400 MP +10% of your own HP if in Diurnal stance

So you do get something more than just the Seal from Minor Arcana, mostly MP. This leads us to…

Divination: Increases damage dealt by self and nearby party members. Duration: 15s
Can only be executed after obtaining three Seals of Arcana by playing at least three arcanum. Effectiveness is determined by the number of different types of seals in play.
1 Seal Type: 6%
2 Seal Types: 8%
3 Seal Types: 10%

Sleeve Draw: Draws a card (arcanum) from your divining deck and grants one stacks of Sleeve Draw.
Because if you use it right after Minor Arcana'ing a card, you can still get your three seals out.

Basically, just under double potencies, because you’re now missing out on half of your single target card buffs, and the bonus of the current Minor Arcana increased buff.
The result of this is that you're not necessarily targeting player characters every 30s to grant them a tiny buff, and you're making a choice between single target buffs and AoE buffs, similar to the old Royal Road system. This choice is more valid than the choices you currently make and restores some agency to the card system.

Over all it is a slight DPS nerf when averaged out, however as you have more powerful buffs, albeit less frequent, then in high end play by timing them around burst windows correctly, it may actually end up being a DPS gain overall.

[Recon1o6]

Edit, wrong name

The fact that seraphor and other hardcore raiders like them focusing on balance as a dps card being above all others is proof they were missing the entire point of the astrologian job as there is more battle content than just raids which was where the other cards shined, but since the hardcore community focuses purely on dps to exclusion of all else ignoring the fact that a clear is a clear as theres no reward for speed beyond beating enrage.

Every card had its uses, just because a card wasn't directly applied doesnt mean it didn't have a use. It was part of the fun, the highs and the lows. That's why the most situational cards had the aoe buffs
Warriors and monks loved spire in dungeons as it was aoes for days.
Ewer was our critical mp restore since they removed luminerferous aether which was incredibly valuable
Bole was useful in solo content to get more damage out before needing to heal and dungeons particularly when you had an idiot tank that didn't use CDs
Arrow made gravity spam which was a fun little aoe burst for ast, if not then there's other jobs that needed it
Spear was both a healing and a damage tool and was beloved in combination with a litany. Bards and monks needed it to remove their rng

The general consensus on the old cards was that it was flawed and some cards could have done with a tweak but incredibly fun. Not having the entire system destroyed to the point the buffs need a parser to see them, because you certainly won't be casting less malefics to kill a mob with 6%

An astrologian that lost a card due to time out in the old system was a poor astrologian. 30 seconds in more than ample time to press 1 of 4 buttons to spend it (use, RR, MA or Spread)- even window lickers remember to push a dot.


Raiders want 1 thing consistent dps buffs. That just required spreading balance to each card and changing it and spire. They didn't need to touch the rest, but no, they utterly wrecked the entire job