Emet-Selch *Major Spoilers*

[Shougun]

My point being I wouldn't equate G'raha's actions with Emet's on the morality scale.

It helps that G'raha is trying to save as many as possible, he's playing the train cart game of which lever to pull based on total lives, and Emet is more like "your race sucks, mine is best" lol and playing the train cart game based on quality of lives (to his own opinion of course). That gives it quite a different vibe. I was mostly just arguing they've both pulled/are attempting to pull levers of value and both pulls come at a cost.

If I'm alive in both timelines, I've not really been "destroyed" because I don't consider the world having been destroyed just because it's been altered. G'raha is not only trying to save dead people, he could be trying to save the living people in this timeline as well. For all we know, the Eighth Calamity was an extinction level event, one that would last centuries.

If you're alive in both yeah, but would everyone be alive in both? I don't think it's fair to say the exact same people will be alive in both- ideally, and to G'rah's point, more will be alive in his desired timeline but, if time changes significantly like that there will be different people due to different circumstances. Say due to the hardship of the calamity I go to a certain town and meet a certain woman who I then leads to the birth of boco coco the choco. Boco roco the choco may very well not exist if I've no calamity to worry about. Boco's existence is in jeopardy, maybe they'll come around some other way- in some sort of fate of life thing.. or maybe they'll never be because of said changes in time (lost).

The person who lived in comfort vs the one who left and lived hardship would be entirely different, leading to different lives and people who'd not recognize themselves (potentially). That side reason why I generally dislike time manipulation like this, since it's a theft of achievements and potential (looking onto yourselves and your potential outcomes you may be filled with pride that you came out strong and had the opportunity to face challenges, and then someone is like "yeah no redo, and I'm taking all those moments away- all that effort is yoink"). I get why some might view events that look like end of the world and be like "the cost is worth it, sorry boco roco" but if in one you had boco and one you didn't because of that change then boco is a lost entity and even if somehow you argue their essence came around again they're clearly going to be very different (and using essence is around so "still alive" concept would be very dangerous since you could do that with Emet's desires too then, as he just wants to make everything whole again).

[Edax]

That side reason why I generally dislike time manipulation like this, since it's a theft of achievements and potential (looking onto yourselves and your potential outcomes you may be filled with pride that you came out strong and had the opportunity to face challenges, and then someone is like "yeah no redo, and I'm taking all those moments away- all that effort is yoink").

Again, I don't see theft of achievement and potential on the same moral level as Emet's genocides and desire for racial purity. Given that AAR through Stormblood has been dealing with an endless war with the Empire, it is not so different to kill Imperials to save the world as it is to travel back in time. You are still robbing people of their future achievements and potential when you kill them in war. "It's a hell of a thing killing a man. You take away all hes got, and all hes ever gonna have." - Unforgiven

[MirronTulaxia]

These two arguments (that I agree with) are exactly why I can't have any sympathy for Emet.

I can't hear what he's saying after interacting with the NPCs of this world and the other player characters and not help but think of him as being not entirely unlike humans of the 19th century who viewed people of color as not actually being human, and using that mindset to justify the terrible acts they committed. And that's not an attitude I can condone or be sympathetic to. He's been a much bigger and more culturally relevant villian than any other we've seen so far, but not deserving of our sympathy. It's a good thing he and his kind are being wiped out.

It really is the same basic thing as ultimately racism and genocide. The Ascians operate entirely differently from how the heroes do. While the people they support may do wonky things (Limsa Lominsa and how it interacted with the Beast Tribes comes to mind) the heroes continually try to make the world a better place, while the Ascians at best operate on such a massive scale of death that the price is too high, even if really it isn't trying to make things better. They've been behind every major Calamity. Every shard they've killed. The Void and the First have the issues they do because of them. And no doubt other shards have issues as well that we aren't aware of, to say nothing of what they've done to the Source. They can say "oh, but they aren't human", yet there isn't any real evidence for that.

Edit: As far as whether or not what G'raha is doing is the same, time travel doesn't seem to work in such a way as killing off the former timeline, evidenced by his continued presence, so that doesn't fly. And again, it was a doomed timeline that countless people wanted to try to avert. No one would volunteer to "kill yourself and merge with the Shard". The WoD only did so because the Ascians doomed their shard to begin with, coercion hardly implies voluntary.

[Elladie]

It really is the same basic thing as ultimately racism and genocide. The Ascians operate entirely differently from how the heroes do. While the people they support may do wonky things (Limsa Lominsa and how it interacted with the Beast Tribes comes to mind) the heroes continually try to make the world a better place, while the Ascians at best operate on such a massive scale of death that the price is too high, even if really it isn't trying to make things better. They've been behind every major Calamity. Every shard they've killed. The Void and the First have the issues they do because of them. And no doubt other shards have issues as well that we aren't aware of, to say nothing of what they've done to the Source. They can say "oh, but they aren't human", yet there isn't any real evidence for that.

Edit: As far as whether or not what G'raha is doing is the same, time travel doesn't seem to work in such a way as killing off the former timeline, evidenced by his continued presence, so that doesn't fly. And again, it was a doomed timeline that countless people wanted to try to avert. No one would volunteer to "kill yourself and merge with the Shard". The WoD only did so because the Ascians doomed their shard to begin with, coercion hardly implies voluntary.

G'raha expected to die, he actually says so. So he was very well aware that what he was doing would destroy countless people who DIDN'T support him. Tales from the Shadows makes it clear that the majority didn't support Cid's plan, the quotes I used to counter arguments that everyone was for it actually say the majority weren't for it. So even though G'raha's non-death may mean a fork in the timeline, and the bad future continuing, he didn't expect that to happen. Even worse, instead of trying to mend the bad future and fight to drag it back from the brink, he essentially abandoned all those people to a world in which EMET SELCH ISN'T DEAD. Not terribly helpful of him really, is it?

No one would volunteer to kill themselves and merge with the Shard, huh? Did you forget that 50% of the Amaurotines did exactly that so that Zodiark could be summoned as the Will of the Planet and put things to rights by ending the Terminus event. Then 50%of the ones left sacrificed themselves so that Zodiark could bring back life to the saved planet. They weren't dragged kicking and screaming and thrown into a volcano, they chose it willingly.

To reiterate, you do keep using the 'oh but' argument when it comes to defending the people on your 'side'. Limsa attacking the spawning grounds of the Sahagin isn't attempted genocide, it's a 'wonky thing' (your words) but the Ascians are genocidal maniacs? If you're intention is to wipe out a race, that's genocide, it's not a wonky thing. I could equally argue that the Ascians don't want to kill everyone, they don't mind if people survive the rejoining. In fact they actually prefer the rejoining to cause as little damage as possible so that they can move to the next as soon as possible. They don't want to kill people, they just have a wonky thing that they're doing to restore the planet.

My personal theory is that the big tragedy, the big mistake - the fatal flaw if you like - happened when the Fourteenth refused to help to summon Zodiark. Perhaps the Fourteenth represented some life-affirming aspect in contrast to Emet Selch's role as a psychopomp. The Fourteenth ushered souls back into new life while Hades ushered them back into the life stream. Even more poignant is that these two were special friends (also in Tales of the Shadows although I do admit to conflating the Fourteenth and the special friend at this point). If the Fourteenth had taken part in the summoning, Zodiark and Hydaelyn wouldn't have been split (remember Ramuh saying that before men, Light and Dark were the same). Our role going forward will be to rectify that mistake made in the ancient past (made possibly by us if we are indeed the Fourteenth)

So yeah, some big ass battle twixt Zodiark and Hydaelyn, possibly involving Zenos, that ends up with the two primals being merged into an entity of balance.

[Dawn_FF14]

Yeah I'm still kind of hoping it'll get explained at some point. I've kind of been operating on the assumption that G'raha effectively did create an alternate reality, meaning that world that saw the 8th umbral calamity still exists and will probably keep on doing so until it's eventually destroyed anyway. Otherwise we've got all sorts of head-hurting questions to deal with. Compounded by time apparently behaving differently on different shards. It's enough to give a headache trying to puzzle it out.

I think they did mention this could an alternative reality during the quest turn-in for Shadowbringer MSQ. Y'shtola asked the Exarch why he's still here and didn't disappear after they've changed history, the Exarch replied that he might step into a different timeline (not the exact words, but kind of what he meant).

[Shougun]

Again, I don't see theft of achievement and potential on the same moral level as Emet's genocides and desire for racial purity. Given that AAR through Stormblood has been dealing with an endless war with the Empire, it is not so different to kill Imperials to save the world as it is to travel back in time. You are still robbing people of their future achievements and potential when you kill them in war. "It's a hell of a thing killing a man. You take away all hes got, and all hes ever gonna have." - Unforgiven

I think that is fair to say, like arguing about the train problem in general (do you pull it? and of course if you choose to or not someone is going to argue that you're bad lol). Plus Emet's train problem comes with racial issues.

Also I know I just sort of jumped in so it might seem like I was asserting they're exactly the same as well, and I am fine with people trying to do that (and having to explain themselves), but rather I was just saying that Mr. T's hands are not lily white. In comparison, especially due to Emet's age, Emet is the ocean and Mr. T is the puddle. But that puddle action is like talking about a certain country in a big war and a bomb that was dropped to end it (at least what we're told in history class, I know people have differing views), that what G'raha did should be taken with grave silence and seriousness and that it wasn't an innocent free action. Not something to do again on a whim. Touch time with the utmost solemn sincerity and regret (and on a personal story telling level, preferably never touch time lol- because time is really messy and draws many issues/questions/moral conundrums that are often left unanswered and not in the interesting unanswered way just.. left there dangling).

[Tsaranoga]

I find it weird how people glorifying a villain who wants to genocide people.

That's because of the sob story. All story writers recycle old ideas, because it's easier than coming up with anything new. EVERYONE does it but it's like it's like a national requirement to write any story in Japan. Like you have a sob story = you are beyond reproach, you can't be held accountable and you should not be punished because then the "hero" becomes what they hate and all that BS. People talk about them being "relatable" but come on, that makes no sense and is compleately insane. It's pretty hilarious actually.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

That's because of the sob story. All story writers recycle old ideas, because it's easier than coming up with anything new. EVERYONE does it but it's like it's like a national requirement to write any story in Japan.

The sad truth is, its hard to write anything NEW that is Good. Even stretching your mind to come up with a different idea or approach a concept from a refreshing angle doesn't exactly mean it will be a Good idea, or resonate with a number of people into a successful idea. This is why very often people play it safe and just use familiar tropes, because something familiar will have a higher success rate then a new edgy idea that may not be that interesting to a larger group.
The best you can do is use a popular formula but change a few things around.

Plus; even though its seen as a lazy excuse (despite how true it is) there is no such thing as an original idea anymore, no matter what, every "new" idea has some level of influence from another idea. That or simply somebody around the world already thought of the idea.

[SinisterJoints]

Because Emet wasn't real? He is hades..

[Morningstar1337]

Because Emet wasn't real? He is hades..

Well I feel like this needs to be elaborated upon.

Emet-Selch is a title, the one bearing the title had put up a persona that AFAIK was based on their fallen friend. A literal mask over the real self of Hades. However I think that there is a lot of overlap between the two sides