I'd like more sword play from RDM in the future, melee and ranged

[MirronTulaxia]

Snip

As I've never said it is the height of perfection you're simply setting up a strawman. What I've said, time and time again, is that it is a ranged caster and for that the amount of melee it has is more than enough.

Snip

1. Aiming for distinction that will ultimately lead to using White Magic as a token effort is not exactly creating a balance of white, black, and sword. Vercure and Verraise are already things, and unless something goes horribly wrong they aren't really used. So your proposal is simply taking away White Magic as a thing. As far as tradition goes you're proposing a job that is not at all traditional, again Red Mages are not mostly melee fighters, so you're not exactly in a place to make an appeal to tradition, which is ultimately a logical fallacy.

2. So then you have a role that ultimately doesn't have any real cohesion. That isn't a solution either. The melee and range aspect is an important distinction, arguably more so than whether it's a caster or physical.

3. What you want is a job that isn't the same as what Red Mage is traditionally, and doesn't work within the system. Some desires aren't reasonable.

4. My point was that if you remove Dualcast clunky as it is the job would work fine. You could probably tweak some numbers to fit things still. If you remove the Balance Gauge then the entire system falls apart.

5. Honestly this is just the same as four. You keep acting like Dualcast is the keystone for the entire design, but with some numerical changes you could keep something mostly the same and it would still work. Maybe not as exciting but it is what it is. If you remove the Balance Gauge, again, you need to overhaul the entire system. You can't just tweak some numbers and expect it to work. The Sword skills are the same way. They're part of the current design and carry weight, even if it isn't dominating the system like you desire.

6. The gameplay is "balance White and Black Magic, use Sword Magic to finish" more or less. Which, again, fits Red Mage. If you start getting into the nitty gritty of any job it doesn't fit past games, almost as though offline games are going to work a bit differently from online games, along with other issues.

7. Red Mages still do wear robes. Better armor to the point of... I don't know, Archer-tier, sometimes happens, but it's not universal. They are better at physical stuff than White/Black/Summon Mages are, but they're still not physical juggernauts who spend most of their time on the front line. Even the time they got called a Battlemage they still used Mage armor. They just got to have Shields on top of it. That's not exactly the face of a guy who spends most of his time in melee.

8. When I talk about "look at the current system" I'm not talking about Red Mages specifically, I'm talking about the skeleton framework that makes up XIV's battle system in general. How the roles work, how they mix and flow together, things like that. It's why when I say things like "ideal system I'd have melee mages as a category" that's acknowledging the current system doesn't have them. Honestly if I was keeping them in the five basic roles I'd probably have Red Mages be a tank myself, but sadly a DoM tank isn't going to happen either.

9. It's not just about DPS output, but about how mechanics play out and things of that nature too. A job that spends its time flitting between two different lines at a regular basis just is going to make more problems than not.

10. Long story short, Red Mages fit the series standard within the parameters of XIV. The only other option that would work for what you seem to want would be a Limited Job where they can do any role.

[Duelle]

Aiming for distinction that will ultimately lead to using White Magic as a token effort is not exactly creating a balance of white, black, and sword.

Having something that most of the DPS roster lacks is not a token effort. A cure, even if weak, is better than having no cures at all. Same goes for being able to rez. This part of your post reminds me of the nonsense back in HW when people complained Divine Veil was useless because it didn't have a really short cooldown.

As far as tradition goes you're proposing a job that is not at all traditional

There's a reason I was specific about the job's offensive spells. And all I did was give the job a mechanic to tie sword use and spell use to each other. The single-player RPGs don't usually have room for such mechanics because of turn-based combat working as it does in addition to building most jobs around a singular purpose/ability. Good thing we're playing an MMO, which isn't restricted by that framework.

The melee and range aspect is an important distinction, arguably more so than whether it's a caster or physical.

The current distinction is that melee DPS output is balanced around expected uptime because they have to dance to mechanics, while ranged in theory don't have to deal with that much. I say in theory because groups tend to just stack behind the mob outside of phases where certain people have to stand in certain spots. With this in mind, the only times my design would have anything you could call an advantage over jobs like DRG, MNK, NIN and SAM would be in fights like E2S or Titania, where mechanics or battlefield conditions might lead to them standing outside melee range (though really, that usually happens if you haven't pre-planned who is going to stand where). I mean, if there's more situations where there might be issues, I'd like to hear them (and I'm being serious here).

What you want is a job that isn't the same as what Red Mage is traditionally

What I wrote has black magic, white magic, and a sword. As I said several posts ago, black magic to hurt things, white magic to heal/protect, and the sword to hit and stab. That is what the traditional RDM has on its plate.

My point was that if you remove Dualcast clunky as it is the job would work fine. You could probably tweak some numbers to fit things still.

Calling the result "clunky" is putting it very lightly. It'd take more than a numbers tweak, since you'd have to look at the rate mana is to be generated, whether it's worth it to keep/redesign Jolt (if not, what should it be replaced with), what to do with Verfire/Verstone, how to work out the AoE rotation (or if there should be one at all). The way the job casts magic would need numerous changes if you removed Dualcast.

Red Mages still do wear robes. Better armor to the point of... I don't know, Archer-tier, sometimes happens, but it's not universal. They are better at physical stuff than White/Black/Summon Mages are, but they're still not physical juggernauts who spend most of their time on the front line.

I wouldn't expect RDM to be a juggernaut. I would expect them to be able to at the least pull their weight in a fight.

Even the time they got called a Battlemage they still used Mage armor. They just got to have Shields on top of it.

They do have native access to some heavy armor (heavy armor 8, 9 and 10, though you needed to set Exodus in order to gain access to them).

When I talk about "look at the current system" I'm not talking about Red Mages specifically, I'm talking about the skeleton framework that makes up XIV's battle system in general. How the roles work, how they mix and flow together, things like that. It's why when I say things like "ideal system I'd have melee mages as a category" that's acknowledging the current system doesn't have them. Honestly if I was keeping them in the five basic roles I'd probably have Red Mages be a tank myself, but sadly a DoM tank isn't going to happen either.

My issue with a "melee mage" category is that you don't have much in terms of jobs to put into that category outside of RDM, Mystic Knight (which I'd totally like to see as a tank) and possibly Geomancer if you copy the FFT design for them (despite the challenges that would bring).

A job that spends its time flitting between two different lines at a regular basis just is going to make more problems than not.

Reading this sentence gives me the impression that you're having issues visualizing how I expect my write up to play out.

You combo Quick Thrust into Iron Thorn, which makes the next spell instant. At the start of a fight you can use any of the three elemental spells to start, but once you do that you have to properly react to the rule of three mechanic to maximize DPS. When you cast a spell in this way, you have a 50% chance to proc Dualcast, allowing an additional instant spell (which you also want to cast following the rule of three to maximize DPS). Each spell cast generates Aetherblade, which can be consumed in an enchanted weaponskill combo if you fill the bar completely, or spend parts of the bar on certain spells if needed. Insert oGCD skills where applicable. This, by the way, is expected to be done at melee range.

The only time you'd really want to leave melee range is to get away from a boss telegraph or to react to mechanics. Going back to E2S, if you have to run to one of the black ground marks that is not in melee range of the boss, you can hard cast whichever corresponding spell in the rule of three system (since they have 3s cast times), which has a 50% chance to proc Dualcast for an instant spell to follow up. You can also spend part of your Aetherblade bar to cast Jolt, which is a spell with a 100% chance to proc Dualcast, or perhaps use Fleche to guarantee your next spell has a 100% chance to proc Dualcast. Either or is better than what the melee jobs have in that same situation, which is nothing (MNK), Piercing Talon/Enpi spam (DRG and SAM), or Raiton provided Ninjutsu is not on cooldown (NIN). As soon as the mechanic ends, you can run back to the boss or use Balestra to close the gap and continue combining sword swings with spell slinging.

You're not going to spend time flitting between two lines. If you do, you're not going to deal the job's intended DPS.

You're saying absolutely "It can't be done" and only supporting that with the biased statement, "I don't want it to that way."

As I said, the rotation has no real gaps in it for intrusions. You're either messing with Dualcast (unless the addition in question is oGCD) or intruding upon spellspam, which affects resource generation.

And yes, as a preference I dislike timers, but have already given suggestions in that vein. You could probably do something like the Wildfire window but affecting resource generation in some way. Not a fan of Wildfire, and I wouldn't be a fan of that either.

Without changing the current model, they could still add spells that would increase the rate of Mana generation, which would tacitly reduce the time spent spellcasting and increase the time spent melee comboing.

These sound more like upgrades to existing spells rather than new additions.

If you want more melee uptime in the current model, you either want them to give RDM more/bigger generators, or just cheaper melee skills. The former goes against your philosophy because it means the devs visibly shoring up the magic side, the latter of which they could do with a trait which is a solution you have already complained about.

My concern with higher mana generation per spell is that it necessitates looking at the imbalance threshold between white and black mana. You can't increase mana generated without also removing or increasing the threshold, otherwise the job would go off-balance within the rotation instead of as a result of player carelessness. That, in turn, somewhat diminishes the whole point of maintaining balance.

Now, if you remove the current model as a factor - meaning practical use of some weaponskills are independent of Mana - then we have to ask the question of "When would it be appropriate and satisfying to actually use a melee skill?", which is again, wha the Balance Gauge originally intended to answer.

If I'm reading this right, you're trying to tell me that weaponskills are not satisfying unless its glowy sword swings that are used once every 14-18 GCDs. I'm gonna beg to differ on that one.

Let's say that the rotation is rewritten so you have a melee skill or combo every 15 sec - maybe a skill you generate a charge for on a 15 sec CD that increases the potency of your next spellcast or applies a DoT or something. Suddenly, actually spending any significant amount of time at range as A Ranged DPS Job becomes a stacking detriment on your output, which means the job's freedom of mobility is affected.

Freedom of mobility? People already stack behind bosses for most if not all content. The only place this might create a problem is in dungeons, and even there you're AoEing down everything and can plausibly stand in melee range.

At which point, in a real fight, you just have a stronger answer to Piercing Talon or Knife Throw, with cast times instead of positionals.

Being able to offer some utility is nothing to scoff at. It doesn't factor much if things go perfectly, but the moments when it is useful are fairly satisfying.

Nothing about RDM's current model blocks a Spellblade from being designed under a completely different one.

Call it my being jaded by FFXI, but part of me expects a hypothetical Spellblade to end up being "the thing RDM should have been, minus the heals" instead of its own thing. I already saw this happen in XI with BLU and am not keen on seeing history repeat itself.

[MirronTulaxia]

Snip

1. You're arguing that the melee skills Red Mage has don't matter because it doesn't use them enough. This is the exact same argument. If you're not going to use White Magic regularly then it's just a token part of the moveset. The big difference is that unlike your claim with melee skills you actually are going to use them every dungeon, even if everything goes smoothly. White Magic the way you have it set up shouldn't pop up ever if things go smoothly.

2. The current system ties spell and sword use together, so you're not making a sound argument. And restricting their offensive magic in such a way while reducing their White Magic isn't a good thing.

3. That is a distinction, whether you consider it enough or not is irrelevant.

4. And what we currently have has black magic, white magic, and a sword. So you're just trying to redesign the wheel here.

5. Relative to the difficulty of removing the job gauge, which the entire job is designed around? Yes, I consider Dualcast a lot easier to remove, especially as most of what you described are simply numbers tweaks.

6. Red Mages do currently pull their weight in a fight. In terms of the series as a whole? They're usually a detriment on the front lines. If your options are other mages a Red Mage is better on the front line. Otherwise? You're better off sticking them in the back with a bow.

7. I wouldn't call that native access as it requires having access to a specific Esper. The Espers, to me at least, feel more like extra specs or the like as opposed to the baseline of what the job is expected to do. Especially given Exodus is a late game optional Esper, using that to say "well Red Battlemage uses heavier armor regularly" is kind of weird.

8. In terms of jobs they could do they could do plenty of things. Blue Mage and Green Mage, for instance, could both fit into that. You could make Ninjas be a melee mage (focus more on ninjutsu), Dancer could have been this, so on and so forth. Not even counting that they can make new jobs too.

9. If you're not moving between the lines then, again, what you made is not a Ranged Caster.

10. While most of what you said to Archwizard isn't too important to chime in on, the fact you see Blue Mage in XI as what Red Mage should be is pretty telling in terms of what you're expecting, and why it isn't really reasonable.

[Archwizard]

My concern with higher mana generation per spell is that it necessitates looking at the imbalance threshold between white and black mana. You can't increase mana generated without also removing or increasing the threshold, otherwise the job would go off-balance within the rotation instead of as a result of player carelessness. That, in turn, somewhat diminishes the whole point of maintaining balance.

Not necessarily - you'll note one of the suggestions I made was "multi-type Mana builders". Consider that aside from "Red Magic" focusing on spells that give a smaller amount of both types of Mana, we also have room for Ice and Water magic, two elements which are often thematically linked.

One suggestion I've made before (just as a spitball) was to make both spells share a proc, and have each spell generate a certain amount of their native Mana type and then buff the caster or debuff the target to give a bonus of that Mana when next casting the opposite spell, so that alternating between the two would cause each one to give an uneven amount of both types of Mana each cast, without thematically breaking either one or forcing them to be "Red Magic". No need to worry about exceeding the threshold amount if both ends rise.

If I'm reading this right, you're trying to tell me that weaponskills are not satisfying unless its glowy sword swings that are used once every 14-18 GCDs.

No, I'm saying weaponskills purely for the sake of having weaponskills would not be satisfying for a caster, period, and they need to go above and beyond to justify their place in the arsenal. The Balance Gauge addresses this by having them be powerful but infrequent attacks to build up to, rather than weak regular occurrences like you've been pressing for.

Freedom of mobility? People already stack behind bosses for most if not all content. The only place this might create a problem is in dungeons, and even there you're AoEing down everything and can plausibly stand in melee range.

Unless you're talking about bullet hell phases, adds, pads, safe zones, or any point where there's a player-targeted AoE marker to spread for. And that's just focusing on when the group is competent.

But sure, why even have ranged jobs or slidecasting, right? I mean you're already saying everyone should be in melee at nearly all times anyway.

Seriously, can I just address the hilarious ineptitude of the argument, that any time someone were to bring up having, say, Ley Lines as a group buff, the casters complain about people stacking too close to them, but bring that up for RDM being literally marked as a ranged job, "well everyone stacks anyway, casters better be auto-attacking between spells!" C'mon now. The only reason we're that close in the first place is for healing, and we have to make up for our cast times with the head start out of the group when the boss starts nuking.

Being able to offer some utility is nothing to scoff at. It doesn't factor much if things go perfectly, but the moments when it is useful are fairly satisfying.

"Some utility that's only useful for when things go horribly wrong" isn't really a strong selling point for a job.

That's kinda the whole point of people complaining about the Verraise tax a few months back.

Call it my being jaded by FFXI, but part of me expects a hypothetical Spellblade to end up being "the thing RDM should have been, minus the heals" instead of its own thing.

"The thing RDM should have been" in your opinion. You're the one who wants it as a lazy melee DPS first that follows up with point-blank instant spells, in what can only be described as a frankly amateurish design doc where your "choice" of three spells is completely arbitrary, and as Mirron has been pointing out, you didn't even try to balance White with Black magic.

You complain about melee just being tacked on, but you ultimately want magic to be in that position instead.

That's not a "hybrid." That's a melee job, that happens to have some ranged attacks tacked on at the end of its main rotation. Dragoon has 10 yard thrust CDs and Ninja has 25-yard Ninjutsu, so that's not even unique among melee. It's just slightly more frequent, with slightly worse actual ranged attacks for mobile phases or any time melee would want to have ranged attacks, due to the cast times.

You are literally just railing that they didn't match your design doc closely enough, when they had no reason to. If you want a melee job, go ask for a melee job for crying out loud.