I'd like more sword play from RDM in the future, melee and ranged

[MirronTulaxia]

1. I'm not talking about the balance gauge, though I do consider it a good thing. I'm talking more literally. The current job is balanced three ways by the three poles of Red Magic.

2. Or, you can have it work like it does currently, where it is actually present even if it's just in the form of the damage spells.

3. Changing the role name requires changing the underlying system where ranged vs melee carries weight. And ultimately sword and magic are tied together currently in Red Mage. You keep stating desires that are covered by the existing system.

4. You'll have to provide actual evidence and not bold claims that Dualcast, as opposed to the Balance Gauge, is at the center of the job. I offer a proposal. What happens if you remove Dualcast versus what happens if you remove the Balance Gauge? If you remove Dualcast the job is a bit less fluid, but it still works. If you remove the Balance Gauge you remove the entirety of their enchanted attacks, all of their upgrades, and in general lose what makes the job what it is. Feel free to provide some sort of evidence to the contrary, but I don't see it. You can make do without Dualcast. You can't make do without the Balance Gauge really.

5. And if you describe the job gauges and such for any job they don't fit. Do Black Mages spam Fire and then recharge with Blizzard? Do Summoners throw around DoT with a weird charge system? So on and so forth. The specific execution varies from game to game in general. Black Magic in FFX, for instance, has no status effects, in spite of that being a big part of the job previously. FFXI Black Mages have access to six elements in a major way, while most FF's they only have three of note (they may have more, but it's up for debate if you'd call them "of note"). I can do this with any job. They all shift, from game to game, depending on the circumstances and what fits. In X Black Mages don't have status effects because Wakka has them. In XI Black Mages have all six elements because they tried to create a more balanced approach to the elements in terms of importance.

What does all of this have to do with Red Mages in XIV? It's the same story. Red Mages are a job that uses Black, White, and Sword to great effect. You can not remove any of them from the job, and the entire system is built around using the three. In XIV this takes the effect of balancing Black and White to use them both effectively and unleash an enchanted sword attack. Why does it work this way? Because it's a Ranged DPS, and needs to work in such a way that it can perform that role without conflict. That it has actual sword attacks as opposed to simple sword discharges is plenty for it given the role it has.

And the sword not having a major presence outside of... the entire focus of the job, is not a criticism of note.

6. You have to replace them because, again, they're a key part of the way the job works. You could replace them without spenders. But then what does the job look like? It doesn't fit the same way. Thereby indicating you need them to make it really click together.

7. Yes, and again, it's a Ranged DPS. It should be spending a lot of time at ranged. That doesn't change the fact that the sword is an important part of its moveset and overall ability list.

8. Neither Caster DPS nor Hybrid are acceptable options, unless you go with the latter and make it a Limited job. So, again, you need to design within the system and not outside of it. If you can't then you can't make any valid complaints.

9. What you've proposed is either a 2:1 or a 1:1 ratio when it comes to physical vs magic, when it would, at least, need to be 1:2 because again, it's a mage. And again, it needs to fit the ranged aspect. It isn't a melee job. It shouldn't be spending too much time in melee range. It causes balance options unless it's specifically a Melee DPS, and if it is then you should emphasize that more. Maybe borrow from Fencer for stuff.

10. As I have said repeatedly, ideal world? I'd make Red Mage a Melee Caster DPS or Support. That isn't an option. So then you need to look into the current system and see what you can do. You could, theoretically, make a Red Mage for every one of the five roles barring perhaps Ranged Physical DPS (they do get Bows fairly regularly, but I think most would balk at them being a bow user, even if funnily Serah and Lightning from XIII are very Red Mage like with the changing weapons). Each one would emphasize different things over the other. Here? We have a job that uses magic at range then jumps in to do some fancy sword work. It's a Ranged DPS, and ultimately this is the way it should be because to do otherwise destabilizes the system.

[Shurrikhan]

6. The current implementation, again, has sword use for a third, roughly, of its moveset.

Counting off abilities off a list is not an relevant, accurate, or otherwise useful way to account for how much theme said abilities take up within a job. The following are.

1. Amount of time spent within the given skill-set, proportionately to others.
2. Duration of rotational strings obliged by the skill-set.
3. Number and depth of concerns made in preparation for those rotational strings.
4. How these concerns augment, cohere to, or complement concerns elsewhere.
5. Number and depth of concerns made during those rotational strings.
6. How these concerns cohere to or complement concerns elsewhere.
7. How much the concerns those rotational strings face to improve damage after their conclusion seems a bonus of those skills, rather than mere setup for more important skills thereafter.

In all these regards, RDM's melee phase is utilized with a bare level of mediocrity. Now, that's not abnormal for XIV job design, but it certainly doesn't mark some immutable height of perfection we should never touch if there's an opportunity for net improvement in the above criteria.

[Klaleara]

Counting off abilities off a list is not an relevant, accurate, or otherwise useful way to account for how much theme said abilities take up within a job. The following are.

1. Amount of time spent within the given skill-set, proportionately to others.
2. Duration of rotational strings obliged by the skill-set.
3. Number and depth of concerns made in preparation for those rotational strings.
4. How these concerns augment, cohere to, or complement concerns elsewhere.
5. Number and depth of concerns made during those rotational strings.
6. How these concerns cohere to or complement concerns elsewhere.
7. How much the concerns those rotational strings face to improve damage after their conclusion seems a bonus of those skills, rather than mere setup for more important skills thereafter.

In all these regards, RDM's melee phase is utilized with a bare level of mediocrity. Now, that's not abnormal for XIV job design, but it certainly doesn't mark some immutable height of perfection we should never touch if there's an opportunity for net improvement in the above criteria.

Agreed with this. Our rotation WITHOUT Manafication takes on average 45-50 seconds. And within that 45-50 seconds, we spend at most 4 seconds in melee. Not quite a third imo, even if you do add in Manafication.

[Katie_Kitty]

I'd love them to expand on RDM's melee abilities as well. The problem is they've kind of designed themselves into a corner with the way the job is set up and it's difficult to think of ways to do so without completely overhauling the job's playstyle. Maybe they could implement a continuation-style oGCD combo to weave in-between melee combo casts. Maybe scorch could give you a buff that activates a separate melee combo after completing the full initial melee combo phase. That might be a pretty neat idea.

[Klaleara]

Here I am really hoping we get more flachette type attacks, shooting swords is always sexy.

Also, am I alone in the fact that I think its weird Scorch and Impact have the graphics they do? I absolutely feel like it should be turned around. Scorch is really visually underwhelming for our finale move, and more deserving to be a spam AoE ability. While Impact is one of the most gorgeous looking, and sounding abilities in the game.

[Yuella]

in FF games, Red Mage melee is useful in early part of the game but falls off in the later stages. In fact in FF1, I never use Fighter anymore because RDM melee is a pretty good replacement + he can be a backup healer. In later stages, RDM gets Temper that can boost up Ninja and Monk attacks which offset not having a Knight in the party. My go to party in FF1 is Monk, Thief, Red Mage and White Mage

In FF14 lore, Red Mage's rapier skill is an Elezen technique. I would love to see Duskwight be represented in the next expansion as the RDM npc which teaches you new rapier skills. Duskwight is the more magical inclined of the two subrace so I think they fit.

[Duelle]

I'd love them to expand on RDM's melee abilities as well. The problem is they've kind of designed themselves into a corner with the way the job is set up and it's difficult to think of ways to do so without completely overhauling the job's playstyle.

This is something I very much agree with. The way the job plays is airtight to the point you have almost no venues to make additions. Incidentally, this is why we got Scorch, replacement skills (Engagement) and upgrade traits with Shadowbringers.

It is possible to add some sword follow ups after Scorch, though we might run into the issue where you lose out if the combo gets interrupted for any reason, which is already a bit of an issue if the boss does prolonged stuns for phase changes or becomes untargetable. I am more on board with oGCD additions that can be weaved in during regular gameplay, though I also feel that has the risk of butting heads with Fleche and Contre (and Corps/Displacement/Engagement if you use them on cooldown). Then again, it would probably lead to an organically-created priority system, which might turn out to be a good thing. Bonus if it contributes in some way to resource generation (which means even more enchanted melee combos).

Or, you can have it work like it does currently, where {white magic} is actually present even if it's just in the form of the damage spells.

As I said, I'd aim for distinction in the uses for the magic RDM has access to. I'll also appeal to tradition here since RDM's damaging magic has been the Fire, Blizzard and Thunder spells.

Changing the role name requires changing the underlying system where ranged vs melee carries weight.

The name change itself would does little other than necessitate SE saying something to the effect of:

"We're very excited to introduce Red Mage as one of the new jobs for Stormblood. Since the job will be joining Black Mage and Summoner and has a martial/melee/physical side that these jobs do not have, we'll be changing the label/category/role name from Ranged Caster DPS to Caster DPS. Black Mage and Summoner will still play like they do, but this will allow Red Mage to ply its trades as you venture into Ala Mhigo and beyond!"

during the event where RDM was unveiled. Then you'd need to tune the intended DPS output for the job and go from there.

And ultimately sword and magic are tied together currently in Red Mage. You keep stating desires that are covered by the existing system.

Considering my beef with the gameplay is how underrepresented sword use is, no, what I wanted is not covered by the existing system.

What happens if you remove Dualcast versus what happens if you remove the Balance Gauge?

Resource generation slows down to a crawl, leading to players either just spamming Jolt/Jolt II or eating the 5s cast times for Veraero/Verthunder and praying for Verfire/Verstone Ready procs. DPS output falls down off cliff, though utility would stay similar in terms of off-heals (no rez mage meme which I guess would be the silver lining). You'd also see a lot of complaints about how dull and one-note the job plays.

The balance gauge works because of Dualcast and the flow of gameplay is dependent on same. The design as such would fall apart and be in need of big revisions if you were to remove it.

If you remove the Balance Gauge you remove the entirety of their enchanted attacks, all of their upgrades, and in general lose what makes the job what it is.

......

You have to replace them because, again, they're a key part of the way the job works. You could replace them without spenders. But then what does the job look like? It doesn't fit the same way. Thereby indicating you need them to make it really click together.

You'd lose enchanted attacks and the finishers. And because when we can't leave gaping holes in ability lists, we have to replace them with something to take the place of what we removed.

Also, removing "melee combo => Verflare/Verholy" and replacing it with "not-Flare => not-Holy => not-Meteor" does little to the current design other than making the mobility skills less useful. You'd also be able to stand at range 100% of the time.

And if you describe the job gauges and such for any job they don't fit.

Except I'm describing the gameplay, not just the gauges.

What you've proposed is either a 2:1 or a 1:1 ratio when it comes to physical vs magic, when it would, at least, need to be 1:2 because again, it's a mage.

If RDM were the average robe-wearing caster like BLM, I could accept that physical damage wouldn't figure in the equation much, if at all. That's not the case, because by concept the job wields a sword and magic.

So then you need to look into the current system and see what you can do.

There isn't much room for anything in the current system because of how tight the rotation is. The most we'll see is incremental changes, if we're lucky.

Just for the record, my write up isn't meant to be a bunch of changes I'd apply to the job right now, because it's way too late for that (players have already been exposed to the current design, and some like it; a major change right now has the chance of going over as well as Heavensward's version of Wanderer's Minuet). It's only there to illustrate the direction I feel the job should have taken in development. If SE ever manages to adjust RDM to the point I see it as a satisfactory alternative to what I wanted out of the job, I'll change my sig and remove the link to the write up.

It's a Ranged DPS, and ultimately this is the way it should be because to do otherwise destabilizes the system.

I'm assuming this is tied to DPS output, which I've mentioned can be tuned and adjusted where necessary. I'd personally aim to have it land roughly where it currently is in terms of DPS output, being the lowest of the three casters, about on part with DRG and MNK (assuming the 95th percentile in FF logs is an accurate representation of where they land DPS-wise).

[Archwizard]

I'd love them to expand on RDM's melee abilities as well. The problem is they've kind of designed themselves into a corner with the way the job is set up and it's difficult to think of ways to do so without completely overhauling the job's playstyle.

The way the job plays is airtight to the point you have almost no venues to make additions. Incidentally, this is why we got Scorch, replacement skills (Engagement) and upgrade traits with Shadowbringers.

I disagree entirely. Given how broad the current playstyle is (the only driving factor of the primary rotation is "hardcast into dualcast", that's literally it), there's lots of room for new additions if the devs are imaginative with mechanics like timers, procs, or multi-type Mana builders - you're just trying to avoid "complicating" it while asking for a shift to a completely different playstyle. It's only "airtight" from the perspective of asking for "more melee"; the only part that's static is the melee combo itself, because RDM isn't a core melee job and only hits the combo every 40 sec anyway.
The reason we got mostly upgrade traits, replacement skills and quality-of-life adjustments is because the devs wanted to shore up the base of the new job they made, before expanding the top end of it.

Every time I see a thread like this, I have to iterate: What you want isn't more melee skills, it's more melee uptime. Under the current model, more mana-spender skills just means more time casting to build them, so the ratio of casting to melee would be relatively unchanged (or possibly shift in the opposite direction).
HOWEVER, the more melee uptime we have also means less time spent casting and more time where you're required to be in the melee, giving up the ranged advantage of the job and a chunk of the job's impressive mobility.

If you want to play a melee-caster hybrid job, ask for a Spellblade.

[Duelle]

Given how broad the current playstyle is (the only driving factor of the primary rotation is "hardcast into dualcast", that's literally it), there's lots of room for new additions if the devs are imaginative with mechanics like timers, procs, or multi-type Mana builders - you're just trying to avoid "complicating" it while asking for a shift to a completely different playstyle. It's only "airtight" from the perspective of asking for "more melee"; the only part that's static is the melee combo itself, because RDM isn't a core melee job and only hits the combo every 40 sec anyway.

Considering this thread is asking for more sword use, we are on topic.

I'm not a fan of timers, and RDM's current gameplay wouldn't really support it unless you create a window of time that doubles mana generated or causes a Verspell to generate both types of mana (which might work if the ability in question is oGCD). Procs run the risk of clashing with Dualcast and slowing down the spellspam rotation. Even if the procs are free enchanted weaponskills, the trick will be in ensure a) there's incentive to use them and b) it isn't counted as a weaponskill to cancel Dualcast. Well, unless you intend for the proc to activate automatically without any player input.

Under the current model, more mana-spender skills just means more time casting to build them, so the ratio of casting to melee would be relatively unchanged (or possibly shift in the opposite direction).

The OP was asking for sword use and melee uptime. That doesn't translate to more mana-spending skills.

HOWEVER, the more melee uptime we have also means less time spent casting and more time where you're required to be in the melee, giving up the ranged advantage of the job and a chunk of the job's impressive mobility.

If you hypothetically increase melee uptime while keeping the rest of the current design, you're either going to get DPS contributions shuffled around or adjustments to how mana is generated to compensate for the loss of GCDs spent casting spells. At least that's how I'd do it if you plopped the design in front of me and told me to make it happen.

If you want to play a melee-caster hybrid job, ask for a Spellblade.

I think we should focus on getting RDM when it needs to be first, then worry about designing a Spellblade.

[Katie_Kitty]

I disagree entirely. Given how broad the current playstyle is (the only driving factor of the primary rotation is "hardcast into dualcast", that's literally it), there's lots of room for new additions if the devs are imaginative with mechanics like timers, procs, or multi-type Mana builders - you're just trying to avoid "complicating" it while asking for a shift to a completely different playstyle. It's only "airtight" from the perspective of asking for "more melee"; the only part that's static is the melee combo itself, because RDM isn't a core melee job and only hits the combo every 40 sec anyway.
The reason we got mostly upgrade traits, replacement skills and quality-of-life adjustments is because the devs wanted to shore up the base of the new job they made, before expanding the top end of it.

Every time I see a thread like this, I have to iterate: What you want isn't more melee skills, it's more melee uptime. Under the current model, more mana-spender skills just means more time casting to build them, so the ratio of casting to melee would be relatively unchanged (or possibly shift in the opposite direction).
HOWEVER, the more melee uptime we have also means less time spent casting and more time where you're required to be in the melee, giving up the ranged advantage of the job and a chunk of the job's impressive mobility.

If you want to play a melee-caster hybrid job, ask for a Spellblade.

I mean that's nice and all but for someone who claims "there's lots of room for new additions " you for some reason neglected to even mention one. You got anything to add besides just saying "hurr you're wrong"?