I'd like more sword play from RDM in the future, melee and ranged

[MirronTulaxia]

Snip

1. What you created, for starters, drops the balance of White and Black and Sword which is a trait of the current design. The White aspect of it is mostly fluff. While I have issues with Red Mages current White Magic it's kind of necessary for things. And what you're proposing is just a melee DPS really as well. The range aspect is kind of moot because you're expected to spend your time in melee range the entire time, using buffs to make the casting not an issue. So yes, what you're proposing then is a Melee Caster, which isn't an option. That or it's a Ranged Caster which... does most of its stuff at melee range, which again, isn't an option. While you aren't proposing a hybrid then you're proposing a new role, which still isn't reasonable.

2. What you propose is a gimmick still. All jobs, ultimately, are gimmicks. They have to have some basic minimum functionality, and beyond that they have gimmicks that flesh them out a bit more. Nor is Dualcast the "gimmick" of Red Mage, it's the utilization of Black/White Magic in tandem and then finishing with a Sword. You keep focusing on Dualcast when that's really not what I'd call the main thing you're focusing on while using a Red Mage.

3. That... is my point. Red Mage is still fitting the job, even if you want to argue they tweaked it some, so if you're for tweaking Sage to fit what we have then Red Mage is perfectly justified as well.

4. If you have to replace the abilities then that means they're critical to the current design. They aren't just fluff. You can say they should have more, but they aren't minor. Which is what you keep implying if not outright stating.

5. You hypothetically could, sure. That's probably not the optimal play most of the time in a group setting though. Being able to do something that isn't optimal doesn't exactly carry a lot of value.

6. The current implementation, again, has sword use for a third, roughly, of its moveset. And the Sword part is critical to how it plays. It is not melee mostly with the rare range option, nor is that a role option.

7. As I said, what you have doesn't actually work in the current system. You've either made a Melee Physical DPS or a suboptimal Ranged Caster DPS. The former has too much magic really, and ultimately is emphasizing sword far, far too much. It's not the defining feature of the job, at all. Ultimately what you're putting forward doesn't fit what it's like in the series, where it is marginally better than other mages with a weapon outright.

8. The White Magic thing isn't because of how White Magic was established, it's because, again, that's the role it is. It's not a Healer. It's a Ranged DPS. That means that the other moves it has revolve around that concept, because that's how the system works. You can't have a job that is equally as good at healing as it is at damage/support functions, which is ultimately what Red Mages are in the core games. It's also incredibly bad at those functions because of that, which isn't a great tradeoff for a balanced game either.

9. And the current Red Mage does use Sword to bump up its DPS. At the end of the day though, it's a Ranged Caster. Again, it has to be able to be roughly comparable to the other two, or it gets dumped. A Ranged Caster who has to spend most of its time at melee range isn't going to fly. Like I said, we had a fourth DPS slot, or a Support slot? Red Mage would fit there. But as we only have three DPS slots, Healer, and Tank then it needs to fit into one of those five roles, and it needs to be comparable to the others in it. It can have a unique gimmick, but at the end of the day it needs to be able to do what the other two can.

10. To you it's a wash, but regardless it gained more Sword skills than it did Black or White. Sword is not being discounted just because it isn't taking up 80% of the moveset. And like I said, you could definitely make a Melee DPS Red Mage. But if you do that you need to tone down the magic.

Shurrikhan
1. I'm talking about Red Mages in the sense of the series as a whole. What you seem to be discussing is specifically Red Mage in XIV. As what you're discussing is Red Mage Dualcast in the context of XIV you're really taking my comment out of context.

[Duelle]

What you created, for starters, drops the balance of White and Black and Sword which is a trait of the current design.

You say this like it's a bad thing. The balance gauge isn't the only way you can implement a resource for a job like RDM.

The White aspect of it is mostly fluff. While I have issues with Red Mages current White Magic it's kind of necessary for things.

Given the way DPS jobs are structured in this game, there's not much that can be done with White Magic as is. RDM having a heal, the ability to rez (which carries a lot of weight because this game allows mid-combat rezzes), and a form of mitigation (Phalanx) is plenty and in line with what one would expect to see in its spellbook. Other White Magic is either stuff like Regen (which would cause issues if RDM were to have it), Esuna (which is a healer ability), Protect/Shell (which have been removed from the game), and status ailments (the bulk of which bosses would be immune to). The most one can hope for is some form of utility and praying that the devs don't decide it's a) overpowered and warranting a nerf, or b) nerf your DPS into the ground because of it.

And what you're proposing is just a melee DPS really as well. The range aspect is kind of moot because you're expected to spend your time in melee range the entire time, using buffs to make the casting not an issue. So yes, what you're proposing then is a Melee Caster, which isn't an option.

As I've said in my prior post, RDM would use magic to make up for what it lacks in brute strength, and use the sword to make up for what it lacks in firepower. And to do so you need mechanics to tie them to one another, otherwise you have two aspects that are segregated from one another for no reason.

Now I do have to ask, why isn't it an option? My gut tells me that you'll lean on the "ranged caster" role label, though then I'll point out all it would take is changing that label to just "caster DPS" (which would change absolutely nothing for SMN and BLM). If your concern is DPS output, that's a numbers issue and can be adjusted under the hood.

What you propose is a gimmick still. All jobs, ultimately, are gimmicks. They have to have some basic minimum functionality, and beyond that they have gimmicks that flesh them out a bit more.

The reason I use the word "gimmick" is because they tend to become the focus of a concept or design, to the detriment of other pieces of that greater whole. This is why I mentioned Refresh, because the way XI's developers and the community treated Refresh was to the detriment of RDM's other aspects.

As for my mentioning Dualcast, I do so because the gameplay is designed around it. While you may not think Dualcast is at the center of RDM, but the developers certainly seem to based on the evidence at hand. To offer a comparison, this would like if they had designed all of PLD's systems around Cover or NIN around the Throw command, regardless of the consequences.

Red Mage is still fitting the job, even if you want to argue they tweaked it some, so if you're for tweaking Sage to fit what we have then Red Mage is perfectly justified as well.

What I'm saying is that ignoring the gameplay, if you describe the job as one that has access to some white magic, some black magic, and has weaponskills, it fits the description of a RDM. Now if you say "this thing focuses on building black and white magic bars for most of its gameplay, and gets to swing its sword only when the bars are almost full", you might get confused looks because that sounds a bit odd. If you go further and say "also the sword doesn't really have a presence outside of the thing with the mana bars", you might get someone asking "why is the sword there, then? just for looks?".

If you have to replace the abilities then that means they're critical to the current design. They aren't just fluff. You can say they should have more, but they aren't minor. Which is what you keep implying if not outright stating.

You have to replace what's taken out because the jobs in this game are built around a template (14-ish skills in the 1-50 range, then either an ability or trait gained every 2 levels after that), and because it'd make no sense to leave a number of blank abilities. Also, replacing melee spenders with ranged spenders isn't the most difficult thing in the universe.

The current implementation, again, has sword use for a third, roughly, of its moveset. And the Sword part is critical to how it plays. It is not melee mostly with the rare range option, nor is that a role option.

I didn't mention this earlier, but it looks like you're counting abilities on a list instead of looking at the gameplay. The gameplay has you spamming magic for 18 GCDs assuming you get no Verfire/Verstone procs (I've been there). That's how long it takes to hit 80/80 before you can actually swing the sword. You spend 3 GCDs using the sword and then Verflare or Verholy. Post Shadowbringers, Scorch slightly speeds things up (down to roughly 14 GCDs between sword swings) and the changes to Acceleration have further helped in that regard. That said, we still have ways to go.

You've either made a Melee Physical DPS or a suboptimal Ranged Caster DPS.

I'd call it a run-of-the-mill modern MMO hybrid. If that's a prohibited term, caster DPS with utility. I designed it so that its intended DPS is on the front lines because it's a guy that wields sword and magic.

The former has too much magic really, and ultimately is emphasizing sword far, far too much.

The sword is a part of the job, and instead of treating it as something that's there out of obligation (or token), I've opted to give it a greater presence in the job's general gameplay.

Also, I don't consider a two-weaponskill combo that allows the next spell to be instant cast "emphasizing the sword too much". Moreso when said instant spell can proc an additional instant cast, and when said proc can be manipulated by oGCDs and other abilities. If the concern is the spender combo I created, that can be changed to spells if need be (Verfire III => Verblizzard III => Verthunder III come to mind), though the finisher would have to be a sword skill (Death Blossom?).

[Shurrikhan]

6. The current implementation, again, has sword use for a third, roughly, of its moveset.

Counting off abilities off a list is not an relevant, accurate, or otherwise useful way to account for how much theme said abilities take up within a job. The following are.

1. Amount of time spent within the given skill-set, proportionately to others.
2. Duration of rotational strings obliged by the skill-set.
3. Number and depth of concerns made in preparation for those rotational strings.
4. How these concerns augment, cohere to, or complement concerns elsewhere.
5. Number and depth of concerns made during those rotational strings.
6. How these concerns cohere to or complement concerns elsewhere.
7. How much the concerns those rotational strings face to improve damage after their conclusion seems a bonus of those skills, rather than mere setup for more important skills thereafter.

In all these regards, RDM's melee phase is utilized with a bare level of mediocrity. Now, that's not abnormal for XIV job design, but it certainly doesn't mark some immutable height of perfection we should never touch if there's an opportunity for net improvement in the above criteria.

[Klaleara]

Counting off abilities off a list is not an relevant, accurate, or otherwise useful way to account for how much theme said abilities take up within a job. The following are.

1. Amount of time spent within the given skill-set, proportionately to others.
2. Duration of rotational strings obliged by the skill-set.
3. Number and depth of concerns made in preparation for those rotational strings.
4. How these concerns augment, cohere to, or complement concerns elsewhere.
5. Number and depth of concerns made during those rotational strings.
6. How these concerns cohere to or complement concerns elsewhere.
7. How much the concerns those rotational strings face to improve damage after their conclusion seems a bonus of those skills, rather than mere setup for more important skills thereafter.

In all these regards, RDM's melee phase is utilized with a bare level of mediocrity. Now, that's not abnormal for XIV job design, but it certainly doesn't mark some immutable height of perfection we should never touch if there's an opportunity for net improvement in the above criteria.

Agreed with this. Our rotation WITHOUT Manafication takes on average 45-50 seconds. And within that 45-50 seconds, we spend at most 4 seconds in melee. Not quite a third imo, even if you do add in Manafication.