I'd like more sword play from RDM in the future, melee and ranged

[MirronTulaxia]

1. My point is that it's a different role, and you are wanting them to more fully be a hybrid. It isn't just a numbers issue, it's a full on gameplay issue. There is a difference between melee and ranged. I suppose they could have just gone full on melee caster but as there isn't a role for that it wasn't likely.

2. Regardless of why Dualcast was added almost thirty years ago is irrelevant to where Red Mage is now. Red Mage was originally added because of Bards in DnD, but it's not like we have them doing minstrel stuff, so the origin only carries so much weight. And I would argue that while Dualcast itself may not be a major part of the job what Dualcast represents (again, speedy spellcaster) has helped to solidify Red Mage from here on out. It's a fast spellcaster, relying on quantity not quality with its spells (further represented by not using high end spells), and this carries over in to how it fights with a sword too, using a rapier and such. Prior to that? It's only real defining feature was simply being a jack of all trades, this helped to give it something of a trade to call its own.

3. Again, Sages aren't about speedy casting. And removing swords is again removing a decent chunk of their current moveset (I want to say somewhere between a third and a fourth). Given that Red Mages are specifically Caster DPS, and that when you look at the original combination (swords, black magic, white magic) swords only represent a third, that's a perfectly respectable amount. If anything it's White Mages that have the right to complain about it given that it just gets to be different forms of Black Magic basically instead of a more healing approach.

4. Being part of its aesthetic and being a major part of how it actually deals damage are different things. But ultimately? No one wanted Red Mages. You wanted Dualcast. This has been the case almost all of the time Red Mages have been a thing. The exceptions are XI and the first two games where it couldn't Dualcast. And in XI you weren't ultimately doing sword stuff the majority of the time (granted I don't think spamming Refresh is the best of situations either (I'm being hyperbolic in case you want to go after me on that, and it may have changed recently but I still strongly doubt the sword skills were why you did Red Mage)). At the end of the day swords are still part of the aesthetic. And arguably more important than it has been previously because it actually has the means to work with its sword skills.

5. FFXI was almost twenty years ago, it's not "recent" when the series has only been around 33 years (not even that yet). That's over half the time the series has been around that Red Mages have had enchanted swords. Now we can argue about how consistently they depict that in terms of depictions of Red Mages, but there haven't been a ton of job system games since then, and of them FFD and XIV both have Red Mages with enchanted swords too, while the only exception off the top of my head is XII. It also perfectly ties in how Red Mages should work. Their sword skills are bad. They are not as good as a Warrior. How do they keep up on the front lines? Magic.

6. Long and the short of it, ideally a Red Mage would be a Melee Magic job. We don't have that. So they went with a Caster job as opposed to making it a Melee DPS with some magic, because ultimately it is a mage, even in the title. And even being a Caster DPS, it has multiple sword skills. The entire point of its gimmick is to build up to a fancy flashy sword move or two. It's not a melee fighter, two thirds of it in terms of how it's a hybrid is magic related, so ultimately it has more than enough. Not getting into the fact, again, that there is a difference between a melee fighter and a ranged fighter in this game. Having a character who plays around in both enough to be a full on hybrid would be problematic. Since we don't have Melee Magic jobs (and even then I would still keep the focus on magic because it's a mage, they would just be short ranged spells most likely) it has to bend a bit. Compared to other jobs it got off pretty lightly as it still really feels like a Red Mage. It's a fast mage with some fancy sword stuff.

[Duelle]

My point is that it's a different role, and you are wanting them to more fully be a hybrid.

You're not understanding what I'm asking for if that's your impression. What I'm asking for is a caster that stands in the front lines, uses the sword in their hand more than just once in a while and tosses spells at the enemy, with a mechanic that ties sword use and spell casting to each other.

What we got was a ranged caster than seldom uses the sword, and by design is encouraged to squander mobility tools becuz k00l fakt0r (unless you just stand stacked behind the mob with everyone else).

And I would argue that while Dualcast itself may not be a major part of the job what Dualcast represents (again, speedy spellcaster) has helped to solidify Red Mage from here on out. It's a fast spellcaster, relying on quantity not quality with its spells (further represented by not using high end spells), and this carries over in to how it fights with a sword too, using a rapier and such. Prior to that? It's only real defining feature was simply being a jack of all trades, this helped to give it something of a trade to call its own.

This takes us to how tricky it is to define a hybrid. Reducing RDM to Dualcast is as bad as reducing the job's raison d'etre to Refresh back in FFXI.

It works as a perk that is part of a greater whole, but not as the job's reason to exist.

Again, Sages aren't about speedy casting.

Scholars weren't about summoning faeries, and blue mages weren't relegated to being circus performers (or professional wrestlers if you go by how the BLU questline ended), either, so this doesn't really hold.

Residual aether around the caster is already a thing (and is why RDM has Dualcast in this game), so that idea can be modified from instant spells to an effect that makes it easier to form the spell. Could even tie it to a memory mechanic as a nod to Tellah.

And removing swords is again removing a decent chunk of their current moveset (I want to say somewhere between a third and a fourth).

Riposte, Swerchhau, Redoublement, and Moullinet prior to Shadowbringers. With Shadowbringers throw in Reprise and Engagement if you want to be technical about it. This is not counting the mobility skills. These could be replaced by things like Water and Blizzard spells, higher tiers of the 6 elemental spells, possibly additional/situational mana spenders and abilities that manipulate the mana bars.

The systems currently in place would not fall to pieces if you took the sword away, which ties back to my point of the sword being almost token.

Being part of its aesthetic and being a major part of how it actually deals damage are different things.

I guess I should have mentioned that up until this game RDM not only could use swords but also equip armor (which in this game's terms means that RDM should be able to share gear with MNK at the least, DRG at the most). In games where your MP doesn't regenerate and you can take one action per turn, a RDM with a sword will help more than a BLM or WHM with staves.

That said, the single player games rewarded taking advantage of elemental weaknesses, and in that context you're going to have that RDM use elemental spells because you want the most bang out of your buck per turn.

And in XI you weren't ultimately doing sword stuff the majority of the time. Granted, I don't think spamming Refresh is the best of situations either (I'm being hyperbolic in case you want to go after me on that, and it may have changed recently but I still strongly doubt the sword skills were why you did Red Mage).

While the playerbase abused RDM's access to Refresh to the point it burned people out and created a lot of bad habits, it was a job that could enhance itself with magic to make up for what it lacked naturally. Gain spells, enspells (especially combined with Composure's 300% damage increase), and Phalanx are what I call a good direction for the job to evolve.

Of course, XI's RDM has a slew of other problems. Healers are still in short supply, so RDMs get drafted for that for events. Doesn't help that a lot of things either have mass dispels, AoE silences or AoE paralyzes (3 things that are the absolute bane of RDMs). There's also issues with gear design, since RDM is either put on equipment that is a tier behind what other jobs get or are put on stupidly overpowered equipment (like Crocea Mors).

At the end of the day swords are still part of the aesthetic. And arguably more important than it has been previously because it actually has the means to work with its sword skills.

There are much better ways to implement sword use than as mana bar spenders. Proc mechanics and buff rotations (spells buff the sword, the sword buffs spells) being two of several examples.

FFXI was almost twenty years ago, it's not "recent" when the series has only been around 33 years (not even that yet).

Yeah that was my looking only at the numbered mainline titles. Also this is in play.

It also perfectly ties in how Red Mages should work. Their sword skills are bad. They are not as good as a Warrior. How do they keep up on the front lines? Magic.

Indeed. RDM would use magic to make up for the difference. The rub is in how to go about it. Self-enchants work. Procs from sword swings that make spells cast instantly or with reduced cast times works. Magic lowering a target's resistance to sword swings works. Sword swings lowering a target's resistance to magic works. Note how none of these go for the "spam spells until you're given permission to swing your sword" approach.

Long and the short of it, ideally a Red Mage would be a Melee Magic job.

Agreed.

We don't have that. So they went with a Caster job as opposed to making it a Melee DPS with some magic, because ultimately it is a mage, even in the title.

And the fact they took this direction opens them up to be criticized. Which is what I've done since the job was introduced.

It's not a melee fighter, two thirds of it in terms of how it's a hybrid is magic related, so ultimately it has more than enough.

I disagree, as the gameplay leaves the sword very much underrepresented.

Not getting into the fact, again, that there is a difference between a melee fighter and a ranged fighter in this game.

There are ways to design around that difference. First things that come to mind are limiting spell use from range or make it deal overall less damage from range (in addition of having few or no mechanics that proc or activate outside of melee range). Meaning that you'll want to stand in the front lines if you want to deal the job's intended DPS, but are also not totally boned number-wise when you have to get away from the boss for whatever reason (you'd do better than the DRG using Piercing Talon, but notably worse than the BLMs and SMNs in the group).

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This all said, if we want to keep the current design but increase the sword's role in some capacity, I see no other alternatives aside oGCD skills that interact with buffs like Verfire/Verstone Ready.

[Shurrikhan]

2. Regardless of why Dualcast was added almost thirty years ago is irrelevant to where Red Mage is now. Red Mage was originally added because of Bards in DnD, but it's not like we have them doing minstrel stuff, so the origin only carries so much weight. And I would argue that while Dualcast itself may not be a major part of the job what Dualcast represents (again, speedy spellcaster) has helped to solidify Red Mage from here on out. It's a fast spellcaster, relying on quantity not quality with its spells (further represented by not using high end spells), and this carries over in to how it fights with a sword too, using a rapier and such. Prior to that? It's only real defining feature was simply being a jack of all trades, this helped to give it something of a trade to call its own.

This seems contradictory. If not for the quality of its spells, whereby RDM has the choice of higher-damage spells that would normally be non-optimal, Dualcast would not increase the relative quantity of spells in any way. 5 seconds of casting over two skills being newly doable in a total of 2.5 seconds of cast time but still costing 5 seconds of uptime is still a cast per 2.5 seconds. Your mobility may increase, but your ppm hasn't. You can only increase the quantity of spells if where newly permitted to use spells longer than your global by either (1) compensation for the penalty or (2) removing the penalty (i.e. that cast time in excess of one's GCD). In either case, the ability to cast a 2-GCD-lengths-cast spell in the time that you would have cast a single-GCD-length spell is every bit as much a potency-bonus (quality) as a bonus to cast count (quality). And, in that, only the pacing or regularity of the potency/cast-count bonus is unique to RDM. It's hardly enough to make an RDM an RDM, unless we can argue equally that BLM is the product of Ley Lines and Triplecast even when exempting its nuke casts.

Shurrikhan
I'm talking about Red Mages in the sense of the series as a whole. What you seem to be discussing is specifically Red Mage in XIV. As what you're discussing is Red Mage Dualcast in the context of XIV you're really taking my comment out of context.

Except if the two function in a completely, fundamentally different manner because of having moved from a turn-based system (where cast count was doubled) to a real-time, GCD-bound system (where it effectively just provides vastly enhanced stutter-stepping), then how is it possibly going to be all that's necessary to make an RDM an RDM?