6.0 Both Tank and Healers Need Major Focus on Bringing Back Job Identity

[ArianeEwah]

The problem with those is that a HoT would either be overpowered or underpowered based on gear relative to the fight's assumed ilevel, 40% is overkill when tankbusters are tuned for everyone else's 30% tankbusters, and a mana regen would turn it into a pop on cooldown or it is a dps loss because more mp=more damage.

How is that any different from Vengeance tho? Either Vengeance becomes the same generic Sentinel every other tank has now, or all the other 30%-mitigation CDs actually need different effects. Those suggestions ain't bad either.
The HoT on Nebula doesn't differ from Aurora HoT, if that's what you meant. 40% on Sentinel being on "overkill" is a non-issue either. PLD's image is that of a bulky tank; instead of lifesteal/shielding like the other tanks, they do mitigate more incoming damage, so it makes sense.
Mana gain from Shadow Wall doesn't have to be big. Remember Blood Price? It was nerfed to the ground in 4.0, and was only useful in dungeon pulls. Just like Vengeance, it is more like a "little bonus"; nothing that will make a big difference.

With the changes in SB and ShB, the dev team could've rightout removed all those "fake identity" actions -Defiance, Grit, Royal Guard, Shadow Wall, Nebula (and Vengeance)- and make Iron Will and Sentinel role actions, just like they did with Rampart, Shadowskin, Foresight, Brutal Swing, and Low Blow. All have the same difference, except for their aesthetic aspect. If they can remove it from Shadowskin and Brutal Swing, they can do it to all the other actions, too. I just hope they will change the actions, and make them unique or give them a little gimmick, instead of just replacing them...

[Delis]

Maybe we can as a community, make one thread and discuss and come to decision on what changes we would like to see for the tank role as a whole, and what changes for each tank job. But can we as a community agree on what is best for the role/jobs. Maybe get with the JP community and work together on coming up with changes and we would like to see the role move towards. Once we come to an agreement, write out a well written, thought out letter, with the issues we have with the role and the changes we would like to see, to the devs, or forum thread or something to show the devs, this is what we want.

Maybe even appoint someone as a "community rep" that would be in charge of seeing thus through. Even if we don't focus on the changes, maybe just coming up with an agreed upon list of the issues and problems and sending that to the Devs. Just an idea.

Right now it just seems we have all these threads, and maybe just having one big thread would be better.

[FoxCh40s]

Maybe we can as a community, make one thread and discuss and come to decision on what changes we would like to see for the tank role as a whole, and what changes for each tank job. But can we as a community agree on what is best for the role/jobs. Maybe get with the JP community and work together on coming up with changes and we would like to see the role move towards. Once we come to an agreement, write out a well written, thought out letter, with the issues we have with the role and the changes we would like to see, to the devs, or forum thread or something to show the devs, this is what we want.

Maybe even appoint someone as a "community rep" that would be in charge of seeing thus through. Even if we don't focus on the changes, maybe just coming up with an agreed upon list of the issues and problems and sending that to the Devs. Just an idea.

Right now it just seems we have all these threads, and maybe just having one big thread would be better.

It could be a giant thread with Neon lights flashing and people throwing money all over the place, and the community reps and devs would STILL ignore it.

[Delis]

It could be a giant thread with Neon lights flashing and people throwing money all over the place, and the community reps and devs would STILL ignore it.

Well that is why I am saying once we can agree on the issues etc, we send a letter to the devs, or since we know they look at Reddit, we can post an "Open Letter to the Devs" couldn't hurt to at least try.

What we do know is that the Devs don't really pay attention to the forums and if we are serious about getting the role changed we need to change tactics. Or we could just continue to complain on the forums, getting the same results it always get, ignored, and leave the role in the hands of the Devs and let them adjust it as how they think we want.

[Cled-cat]

Hasn’t it been obvious they don’t give a damn about healers’ feedback? Even during live letters where there were huge amounts of healer questions they ignored essentially every one. Each time they done a slideshow on the roles, healers got basically one sentence or bullet point opposed to multiple slides on tanks and DPS. They don’t care about healer mains or their concerns, they couldn’t have made that any more obvious.

[Lyth]

Half the time you can't tell what the healers' feedback actually is, aside from the fact that they want you to stop ignoring their feedback. It seems like they're perpetually stuck on the eternal debate on the purity of healers and whether they should be doing more damage or more healing.

Tanks are simple creatures. We're the main characters. We want to go toe to toe with the big bad. We want to control the fight. We want to survive attacks that would kill lesser mortals. We want to hit things hard. We want to embarrass underperforming dps. Think that's it's unfair for us to have all that fun to ourselves? Then play tank. The only reason why people should ever want to play dps is because they're not good enough to be tanks. That's how you get yourself adequate numbers of tanks. People fill the dps role by default.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Bring back OG Reprisal. Bring back Low Blow procs.

Proc based Counter dps actions are not coming back because they force jobs to MT/take unnecessary damage unless they want to lose dps. Vengeance only slipped through due to how insignificant its dps increase is.

How is that any different from Vengeance tho? Either Vengeance becomes the same generic Sentinel every other tank has now, or all the other 30%-mitigation CDs actually need different effects. Those suggestions ain't bad either.

I'm not saying that I think that these actions couldn't use things to individualize them more, but your suggestions do have problems.

The HoT on Nebula doesn't differ from Aurora HoT,

Aurora's HoT is the equivalent of the WAR's Equilibrium and PLD's Clemency. All are 1200 potency heals. To be balanced the HoT would need to be close to meaningless.

if that's what you meant. 40% on Sentinel being on "overkill" is a non-issue either. PLD's image is that of a bulky tank; instead of lifesteal/shielding like the other tanks, they do mitigate more incoming damage, so it makes sense.

All the Tanks currently mitigate/self-heal roughly the same amount of damage. Paladin's shield block procs are balanced by rotational self-heals/shields and the fact that all 3 other tanks have an additional defensive cooldown over Paladin. Increasing Paladin mitigation from Sentinel will not make it more interesting and would lead more to overhealing rather than any interesting gains.

A better unique effect would likely be for it to add an amount of shield gauge on use.

Mana gain from Shadow Wall doesn't have to be big.

Any amount of MP is going to make players ask "Can I use this often enough to squeeze in another EoS/FoS/TBN during the fight?" They do not want to repeat the "Vengeance is a dps cooldown" situation of ARR/HW when Vengeance granted a Wrath stack and so WARs were saving it for their Berserk phases for more IB/FCs.

Remember Blood Price? It was nerfed to the ground in 4.0, and was only useful in dungeon pulls.

Blood Price was not directly connected to the Dark's defensive suite. It was designed to one of the major mp recovery mechanism (therefore damage resource generators) for DRKs while in Grit. Blood Price was removed due to double dipping allowing for increased dps and therefore forcing the DRK into the MT position.

Just like Vengeance, it is more like a "little bonus"; nothing that will make a big difference.

In most cases "Little bonuses" add up. Vengeance's bonus, on the other hand, is so small that it is close to nonexistence as it requires a physical attack to trigger, a majority of attacks in EX+ content are magical and cast bars stop auto attacks (which are sometime the only physical attacks in a fight). In a theoretical best case "100% primary target with physical attacks" scenario it is 2.75 potency increase per second, but in reality constant use is far less of a dps gain.

[ArianeEwah]

Aurora's HoT is the equivalent of the WAR's Equilibrium and PLD's Clemency. All are 1200 potency heals. To be balanced the HoT would need to be close to meaningless.

Your first argument was it would scale too well with gear, but EVERY action in this game scales with gear. So that's not a reason. I don't know how you got the impression Nebula had to have a combined 1200 potency HoT or something. It could be anything; on-hit heal, on-hit HoT that refreshes after with each hit (e.g. 100p/tick on 6s duration), or shielding when taking damage (anything >0).

All the Tanks currently mitigate/self-heal roughly the same amount of damage. Paladin's shield block procs are balanced [...] Increasing Paladin mitigation from Sentinel will not make it more interesting and would lead more to overhealing rather than any interesting gains.

This is where you are wrong. If not for Hallowed Ground, Paladin is the least favorite tank for MT spot, and that for a reason. You can look up any high ranked savage run, and not see any PLD going for the MT spot. All other tanks have oGCD and combo self-heals. In e.g. E5s they "passive heal" through roughly 20% of incoming damage (Aurora, Equilibrium, Abyssal Drain, combos), PLDs "passive" block only mitigates 6% on average. A 10% increase on Sentinel would actually relieve some stress on healers, as PLD already needs the most healing of all tanks. Even in dungeons, PLD is the most vulnerable tank if don't sacrifice your own dps by wasting your mana on Clemency. Your argument about overhealing is invalid. Again the image PLD has is that of a bulky, hard-mitigating tank, so it would make sense. Interesting or not is subjective.

I would understand an additional increase of oath if it wouldn't be overflowing most time anyway. You already pair CDs if necessary. This would just result in "press an additional button before and/or after usage" before overcapping. THAT would actually be overkill.

Blood Price [...] was designed to one of the major mp recovery mechanism (therefore damage resource generators) for DRKs while in Grit.

This is also wrong. Even with Blood Price locked behind Grit, it was never a major MP recovery mechanism in 4.x. Quite the opposite, Blood Price gave so little mana in return, staying out of Grit and going for Blood Weapon was far more benefical, and standard. DRK players were actually quite shocked that the amount of mana recovered was reduced as well as being locked behind Grit from 3.x to 4.x. Since then it has only been useful in dungeons and in combination with Delirium. Otherwise it was a loss in dps and survivability.
The only "real MP gain" in Grit was the increased mana recovery on Sython Strike.

Any amount of MP is going to make players ask "Can I use this often enough to squeeze in another EoS/FoS/TBN during the fight?" [...]
In most cases "Little bonuses" add up. Vengeance's bonus [...] In a theoretical best case "100% primary target with physical attacks" scenario it is 2.75 potency increase per second, but in reality constant use is far less of a dps gain.

Where did you get this number from? Vengeance is only active for 15s on 120s CD. AAs happen every 3s max -unless we are dealing with multi-hit mechanics- that's 5 hits under Vengeance. That's 275 potency/120s -> 2.292 potency/s.
If Shadow Wall would give e.g. 200MP/hit, at "theoretical best" that would be 1k MP/120s. You would need up to 6min for 3 Shadow Wall usages on optimal uptime to gain 3k MP for one! EoS. That's 500 potency/360s -> 1.39 potency/s. Unless it'd give double or triple the amount, it wouldn't be worth using it every time it comes off CD. Just as Vengeance isn't used on CD if you need it elsewhere.

If you really are against such additions or think them as problems, don't defend the Vengeance "bonus" in the first place.
Your posts sound as if you'd think we expect 12.000 potency heals, or 30.000 MP from just one usage. We/the original poster didn't even tell any numbers, but you already discarded everything as "problematic/too strong, but Vengeace is fine". Aestetics are fine, but at this level of homogenisation the 30%-mitigation actions require more than that. They don't have priority, but they are no doubt part of the identity problem.

[Jandor]

I don't mind some homogenization.

Like I don't mind all the tanks having: short CD, 20% cooldown, 30% cooldown, fluff cooldown, provoke, invuln.
Likewise, I wouldn't mind all the healers having: small heal, big heal, shield, regen, aoe heal, esuna & raise.

What gets me though, is that after making sure all the jobs in a role can do the basics properly, they then homogenize the damage dealing aspect of it as well. There was no need to reduce all healers down to damage skill, aoe damage skill, and dot skill. There was no need to give 3 out of 4 tanks a spamX5 window.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Where did you get this number from? Vengeance is only active for 15s on 120s CD. AAs happen every 3s max -unless we are dealing with multi-hit mechanics- that's 5 hits under Vengeance. That's 275 potency/120s -> 2.292 potency/s.

Due to server tick timings and ping auto attacks can hit up 6 times during of a 15s cooldown (first on sec 0 last of 15s, 5 is a more normal number of auto attacks) not including any instant cast physical abilities during that time which would not stop auto-attacks. If you factor 1 physical ability and 5 physical autos in you get 330 potency every 120 sec (i.e. 2.75 potency per second). This is the theoretical optimal discounting server tick/ping goofiness. Due to the nature of fight design, cast bars and animation locks you are lucky to see 3 during those 15s.

This is where you are wrong. If not for Hallowed Ground, Paladin is the least favorite tank for MT spot, and that for a reason. You can look up any high ranked savage run, and not see any PLD going for the MT spot. All other tanks have oGCD and combo self-heals. In e.g. E5s they "passive heal" through roughly 20% of incoming damage (Aurora, Equilibrium, Abyssal Drain, combos), PLDs "passive" block only mitigates 6% on average. A 10% increase on Sentinel would actually relieve some stress on healers, as PLD already needs the most healing of all tanks. Even in dungeons, PLD is the most vulnerable tank if don't sacrifice your own dps by wasting your mana on Clemency. Your argument about overhealing is invalid. Again the image PLD has is that of a bulky, hard-mitigating tank, so it would make sense. Interesting or not is subjective.

And you point out the problem with just Clemency. Aurora, Equilibrium and Abyssal Drain are where the majority of the missing 14% is coming from (abuse of Nascent Flash for self-healing during burst windows is where Warrior is getting a lot) as none of the other tanks loose out on dps using their ogcd self heals on near cooldown to mitigate much of the fluff damage. The heals/shields from combos are equal to the ~6% damage reduced by natural shield blocks. If a Paladin was willing to tank their dps by casting a Clemency every minute they would get that 14% as well. (Stupid idea to fix this: Clemency gives you a buff that increases the potency of the next Confiteor by 350).

10% increase in Sentinel would not change how many gcds a healer would use to heal the Paladin. The Paladin would still need 2 big heals to be topped off after being hit by a tankbuster. A slight more powerful medium recast cooldown will not significantly decrease the average damage taken in a fight.

I would understand an additional increase of oath if it wouldn't be overflowing most time anyway. You already pair CDs if necessary. This would just result in "press an additional button before and/or after usage" before overcapping. THAT would actually be overkill.

Oath gauge overflow is a sign of underutlization of gauge abilities. Intervention and Cover get underutilized as ShB fight design doesn't have as many occasions where they are obviously useful. Intervention is actually designed to follow Sentinel (it jumps from 10% to 25%), but fights lack the single target healer/dps busters that would make these useful.

If Shadow Wall would give e.g. 200MP/hit, at "theoretical best" that would be 1k MP/120s. You would need up to 6min for 3 Shadow Wall usages on optimal uptime to gain 3k MP for one! EoS. That's 500 potency/360s -> 1.39 potency/s. Unless it'd give double or triple the amount, it wouldn't be worth using it every time it comes off CD. Just as Vengeance isn't used on CD if you need it elsewhere.

Considering that Dark Knight rarely wants to be at more than 90% MP, a Dark Knight will always see that 1k mp. This will mean that bad DRKs will pop it for DpS rather than saving it for where it is appropriate. We saw that exact situation during HW where WARs saved Vengeance for their Berserk windows and would therefore lack cooldowns for tankbusters. This would be a lesser problem for DRK as 3 Shadow walls would mean another potential TBN, but it would still turn Shadow Wall into a dps cooldown which is counter its intended usage.

If you really are against such additions or think them as problems, don't defend the Vengeance "bonus" in the first place.

I don't really think the Vengence's "bonus" needs to be there. It is completely a hold over from when Vengeance was only counter damage+stack generation. I was actual surprised that it kept the counter attack effect when all other counter attacks were purged in ShB. I suspect that the only reason the counter damage is still their is so that the name makes even a little sense.

Your posts sound as if you'd think we expect 12.000 potency heals, or 30.000 MP from just one usage. We/the original poster didn't even tell any numbers, but you already discarded everything as "problematic/too strong, but Vengeace is fine". Aestetics are fine, but at this level of homogenisation the 30%-mitigation actions require more than that. They don't have priority, but they are no doubt part of the identity problem.

No, I didn't. I said a HoT was going to either be so underpowered to be meaningless or potentially overpowered based on potency and gear, increased damage mitigation would just lead to no real change in healing needed and MP regen would turn it into a dps cooldown.

I'd like to see them individualized but HoTs, flat increases in mitigation, MP Regen and non-neutral dps resource increases are not going to be viable ways of individualizing.

Possibilities I could see working:

• Shadow Wall: If The Blackest Night's duration runs out without being broken gain Dark Arts.
• Sentinel: Increase Oath gauge by 25.
• Nebula: Heart of Stone's additional effect increases by 10% of the target's max hp.