WHM downtime thoughts

[MirronTulaxia]

I like White Mages being more strictly Holy. As is it kind of ate up two different thematics (nature and divine) and because of that it wasn't a great fit. They're two distinct themes and they should be able to stand on their own. While I personally feel like they could have had a nature healer without issue (or a more divine one) others seemed to think that wasn't possible, so this change helps to make it possible.

As for the proposed idea, I'm not sure how I feel about it. Ignoring the elemental aspect which could just be changed, I would like Healers to focus more on healing as opposed to a soft rotation. Expanding the support a White Mage does would be fine, except that I'm not sure how they could do that in a meaningful way. As far as buffs/debuffs go I would want them to focus more on defensive things than offensive too, which isn't really popular but fits White Mage.

[Saefinn]

I like White Mages being more strictly Holy. As is it kind of ate up two different thematics (nature and divine) and because of that it wasn't a great fit. They're two distinct themes and they should be able to stand on their own. While I personally feel like they could have had a nature healer without issue (or a more divine one) others seemed to think that wasn't possible, so this change helps to make it possible.

As for the proposed idea, I'm not sure how I feel about it. Ignoring the elemental aspect which could just be changed, I would like Healers to focus more on healing as opposed to a soft rotation. Expanding the support a White Mage does would be fine, except that I'm not sure how they could do that in a meaningful way. As far as buffs/debuffs go I would want them to focus more on defensive things than offensive too, which isn't really popular but fits White Mage.

I think the two work together within the world of Final Fantasy XIV because it's not so much a nature healer (Conjurer I think was more nature) but how the elements exist along a spectrum and there being a split divide on the elements between Dark and Light. With White Mage taking the light and Black Mage taking the dark. This is then also carried on into Red Mage who seek to join the two sides of the spectrum together and why much of their mechanics are to two with balancing the dark and light through their respective elements until unleashing light (verholy) or dark magic (verflare). I think to have White Mage move away from that to have much more of a holy focus I think doesn't fit with the theme and feel of a White Mage here. And I miss big rocks, windy spells and the hope they one day bring a proper water-based spell.

I guess also how as a result it doesn't simply feel like it's a holy mage, which we see a lot of out there, it's more about the elements than any kind of divine power and I like that.

Whereas something more purely holy I think works great for Paladin in this game, just like something purely dark would great for Dark Knight.

[Edit]

Actually it might serve me more argument for why they could add Devout as a 4th healer. I suggested the idea of the 4th healer being a good way to move all of the healer design philosophy of 5.0 to a new job so all those who praise this direction have what they want, whilst reverting the existing healers to the design philosophies people already liked who're complaining. I suggest 5.0 WHM's design could be a good basis because it is the best designed of the 3 in ShB, and Devout would fit the position well. Devout would also leave more room for a pure holy class and could relate back more to Krile too. Though some might argue too close to White Mage in someways, but we also got people calling for Geomancer, which is already close to Conjurer and Astrologian and Time Mage, which is also close to Astrologian.

[MirronTulaxia]

I think the two work together within the world of Final Fantasy XIV because it's not so much a nature healer (Conjurer I think was more nature) but how the elements exist along a spectrum and there being a split divide on the elements between Dark and Light. With White Mage taking the light and Black Mage taking the dark. This is then also carried on into Red Mage who seek to join the two sides of the spectrum together and why much of their mechanics are to two with balancing the dark and light through their respective elements until unleashing light (verholy) or dark magic (verflare). I think to have White Mage move away from that to have much more of a holy focus I think doesn't fit with the theme and feel of a White Mage here. And I miss big rocks, windy spells and the hope they one day bring a proper water-based spell.

I guess also how as a result it doesn't simply feel like it's a holy mage, which we see a lot of out there, it's more about the elements than any kind of divine power and I like that.

Whereas something more purely holy I think works great for Paladin in this game, just like something purely dark would great for Dark Knight.

[Edit]

Actually it might serve me more argument for why they could add Devout as a 4th healer. I suggested the idea of the 4th healer being a good way to move all of the healer design philosophy of 5.0 to a new job so all those who praise this direction have what they want, whilst reverting the existing healers to the design philosophies people already liked who're complaining. I suggest 5.0 WHM's design could be a good basis because it is the best designed of the 3 in ShB, and Devout would fit the position well. Devout would also leave more room for a pure holy class and could relate back more to Krile too. Though some might argue too close to White Mage in someways, but we also got people calling for Geomancer, which is already close to Conjurer and Astrologian and Time Mage, which is also close to Astrologian.

1. White Mage is Conjurer. The two aren't desegregated just because of a name change.

2. If we're going with elements tied to Light then White Mage would have Ice. That's the element most strongly associated with Light/Umbral in the game, hence why Shiva in Eden turned out the way it did. So even going off of that reasoning it doesn't really line up.

3. Flare... isn't Dark Magic. It's Fire. The mastery of Black Magic (for a time) isn't Darkness, it's Fire. Lately Black Mages have picked up some Darkness-like spells (arguably the unaspected spells are those presumably), but the bulk of their theme isn't really Darkness stuff either. And they use the element most closely aligned with Light as well, Ice. So if you try and look at it from the XIV lens of six elements and two polarities it still doesn't quite line up to Black Mages being dark masters.

4. As far as White Mages not fitting the theme of... I'm not sure I quite understand the argument, I guess XIV's elemental balances? As far as that goes, the two jobs are not balanced around the elemental wheel. Black Mages use the three standard elemental spells they've always used, and White Mages got a nature theme added to them and used a couple elements they've used elsewhere with a third added (Earth (though thinking on it Mobius does use Earth I believe)). There isn't anything wrong with it, but it isn't about balancing the wheel of elements at all and astral/umbral polarities. Black Mage bounces between the two poles as is, it's literally in the name. More to that point Black Mage is if anything more light aligned as its Umbral element is the peak light one, while its Astral one is Fire not Lightning. So looking at that kind of angle shows a really weird system in place.

5. In short, the elements don't really flow that way. Since they don't, actually having White Mage move to a proper Light theme (which is the closest to a consistent theme with the job) is better. They can always take those three elements and flesh them out better in another job and make that more of a theme. We could even see a proper Dark themed spellcaster at some point too, though I don't really expect that. To me Black Mage and White Mage aren't really opposites so much as a hold over from FFI being inspired by DnD. At least in terms of elements they aren't or in terms of themes. That said White Mage has been focused on the divine/holy much more consistently than anything else.

6. Devout, Geomancer, and Time Mage all can stand independently of existing jobs. Especially when one need only look at Scholar to see how much a job can change from past incarnations. That said I don't really see any point in Devout when White Mage does what Devout presumably would do. Geomancer stands out as a solidly nature themed job and in terms of mechanics could have a zone based gimmick perhaps. Time Mage is magic that manipulates time and space (including Earth, which could be a thing for taking away it from White Mage), Astrologian manipulates fate and uses star themed magic. While they overlap with Gravity it's not too heavy of an overlap really. Really it's just makes a case that Earth is much better suited for Geomancer or Time Mage than White Mage as White Mage has a solid theme that works without Earth, while Geo/Time would have a much harder time pulling it off.

[Saefinn]

snip

Whilst some inaccuracies on my part, I'll accept. I think in my post, I let myself confuse Light Magic with White Magic and Dark Magic with Black Magic. When light and darkness is umbral & astral.

Even then. The elements are split between White and Black Magic, even if they aren't opposites in terms of light and dark.

White Magic is not the same as Conjury, though in learning it, White Magic derives from the same elements as conjury and acts as an upgrade with light magic included. And it was the same balance for White Magic during the war of the Magi against the Black Mages of Mhach. And Red Magic holds the balance between White and Black Magic because of that war. White Magic in this game just isn't purely light or holy and to move into that direction I just don't think makes sense for this game. Light magic is meant to be an addition to their elemental magic, not an upgrade.

It just seems to be arbitrarily moving it more in line with WHM in other FF titles and touch on their themes, rather than the one they've already established.

[MirronTulaxia]

Whilst some inaccuracies on my part, I'll accept. I think in my post, I let myself confuse Light Magic with White Magic and Dark Magic with Black Magic. When light and darkness is umbral & astral.

Even then. The elements are split between White and Black Magic, even if they aren't opposites in terms of light and dark.

White Magic is not the same as Conjury, though in learning it, White Magic derives from the same elements as conjury and acts as an upgrade with light magic included. And it was the same balance for White Magic during the war of the Magi against the Black Mages of Mhach. And Red Magic holds the balance between White and Black Magic because of that war. White Magic in this game just isn't purely light or holy and to move into that direction I just don't think makes sense for this game. Light magic is meant to be an addition to their elemental magic, not an upgrade.

It just seems to be arbitrarily moving it more in line with WHM in other FF titles and touch on their themes, rather than the one they've already established.

The elements were split between them. Now they aren't. White Mages don't typically have a rigid 1:1 opposition with Black Mages in terms of elements. They use Holy/Light, while Black Mages tend to use Fire/Ice/Lightning. Letting another job take up the three elements White Mages were using, especially when they're likely to be more important thematically, isn't a big deal.

As far as how it impacts the lore, it really doesn't. White Mages way back when in the War of the Magi are different from White Mages now, and especially different from White Mage WoL. Nothing wrong with him moving away from those roots. It's not like Black Mages are going around dealing with Voidsent after all.

With regards to how arbitrary it is, if they're adding a job to better focus on those themes then it really isn't. While I personally feel they could have had White Mage and Geomancer both as healers others disagree.

[Saefinn]

The elements were split between them. Now they aren't. White Mages don't typically have a rigid 1:1 opposition with Black Mages in terms of elements. They use Holy/Light, while Black Mages tend to use Fire/Ice/Lightning. Letting another job take up the three elements White Mages were using, especially when they're likely to be more important thematically, isn't a big deal.

As far as how it impacts the lore, it really doesn't. White Mages way back when in the War of the Magi are different from White Mages now, and especially different from White Mage WoL. Nothing wrong with him moving away from those roots. It's not like Black Mages are going around dealing with Voidsent after all.

With regards to how arbitrary it is, if they're adding a job to better focus on those themes then it really isn't. While I personally feel they could have had White Mage and Geomancer both as healers others disagree.

Whilst they are different now to what they were in the War of the Magi, White Mage now derives from Conjurer, which is also based around those elements. I just don't see it plausibly dropping those elements as it grows more powerful when it has always been a combination of those elements and light-aspected magic, which has worked great and is something that I and WHM's I know also liked about it. But why change it up now?

And it doesn't stop the potential for a Geomancer, I'd think Geomancer would probably better suit a support magic DPS rather than a healer, personally. But the game already has them in lore and is perfectly plausible to bring them in.

[Velox]

Whilst they are different now to what they were in the War of the Magi, White Mage now derives from Conjurer, which is also based around those elements. I just don't see it plausibly dropping those elements as it grows more powerful when it has always been a combination of those elements and light-aspected magic, which has worked great and is something that I and WHM's I know also liked about it. But why change it up now?

Well if you think back to the lore of White Magic, the reason why it was banned was because in it's purist form, it allows for the direct manipulation of the aether in people. The most powerful White Mages of Amdapor could break down the very existence of the soul with a single spell. This does fall in line with what we've learned about the nature of Light in 4.0 (the complete cessation of aether). I mean, the WoL's soul began to fracture by absorbing Light...imagine the power some of the Amdapori could wield if they had the ability to just completely shatter a soul at will?

If only makes sense that as the WoL grows ever more powerful in White Magic, White Magic would begin to manifest in its purist form and start to greatly offset any past teachings of conjuration. Thus, as the WoL continues to learn White Magic at the expense of Conjury, the more influence White Magic will have on his/her tool kit. Earth/Water/Air will give way to Light.

[MirronTulaxia]

Whilst they are different now to what they were in the War of the Magi, White Mage now derives from Conjurer, which is also based around those elements. I just don't see it plausibly dropping those elements as it grows more powerful when it has always been a combination of those elements and light-aspected magic, which has worked great and is something that I and WHM's I know also liked about it. But why change it up now?

And it doesn't stop the potential for a Geomancer, I'd think Geomancer would probably better suit a support magic DPS rather than a healer, personally. But the game already has them in lore and is perfectly plausible to bring them in.

The out of game answer is, presumably, they streamlined aspects of it so they could give it to Geomancer or another concept. In game there isn't any particular reason they have to work the way they do, but there isn't any real reason they have to stick strictly with Conjurer-themed spells either. As for stopping it from adding Geomancer, I've never held that stance, but others do. Whether or not SE does is hard to read at this point. It's quite possible they just wanted White Mage to fit its traditional depictions more, or move it away from being opposite of Black.