Dropped Items and Materia

[Brannigan]

LOL Brannigan, it seems like 95% of all your posts are pure crafter/crafting hate.

You really need to let this go -- or play a new game.

Hi there forums poster Zantetsuken. If you read the OP of this thread then you'll see I do not hate crafting - far from it, as I think that the materia system will die off if dropped items aren't meldable. I might hate crafters, though - especially when they post stupid shit like

nothing is wrong with [materia wepons > drop weapons]

Why is this stupid? Well,

Turning a zillion cheap linen 40+ armor pieces into materia every 20 minutes in a party of 8 getting 280k SP an hour AOE nuking wolves on THM and then putting those materia into a slot machine on crafted items to achieve the best gear in the game is not a fun endgame.

[NoctisUmbra]

Also hey stats do plenty. 2% here, 1% there. This is an MMORPG and it's not like you're going from basic gear to full endgame. You're going from 1 piece of basic gear to 1 slightly better piece of basic gear. Gaining 20 dex isn't going to double your damage if it comes from a stupid hat.

Not every stat is broken or ineffective. Personally I don't have any issue with the Attributes (STR, DEX, INT, etc.) They simply give diminishing returns at higher levels, and also have unique bonuses per class that are quite noticeable in effect offensively.

However there are stats, such as Defense, Evasion, Magic Evasion, any elemental stat, etc. that have very low effects. Now we find out that enmity materia also has a negligible effect.

[Chadwick]

Crafting should allow a player to be self-sufficient and provide that player with a good way to make gil. It shouldn't have a stranglehold over the entire game. ESPECIALLY when that stranglehold makes endgame pointless.

[Firon]

What they should do is for U/U items is make an upgrade system for u/u items. This idea could also make old content have use once more. Take the Blade dancer boots from Darkhold I think its like 3 dex and 3 evasion or something like that.

Basically what they could do is make you use items from the respective dungeon upgrade U/U item's to make them better than materia items. So Lets take those blade dancer boots from darkhold with 3 Dex and 3 evasion and see what they could look like upgraded.

No upgrade: 3 dex 3 evasion

Lv. 1 6 DEX 6 Evasion

Lv. 2 9 Dex 9 evasion.

Lv. 3 12 Dex 12 evasion

Lv. 4 15 Dex 15 evasion

Lv. 5 18 Dex 18 evasion. ??? bonus stat. (5+ str)

Now the items to upgrade them should drop from the sub or main boss from the instance raid or open world dungeon or HNM. with this system you could make almost all the content in the game right now more desirable than it ever was.

1. This system would make U/U and U gear more worth while.

2. This system could make content last much longer.

3. Add's long term goals to the game.

Some of you might argue I could just dbl meld 2 evasion materia on my shoes but, you can't put dex on that. I feel that are plenty of good items in the game if only they had better stats on them.

[Madruk]

The game will die if the continuing trend of double materia items > anything else. Plain and simple.

Since we don't have any current real raid items to compare from and only the piddly 8 man primal weapons, time will tell what they intend.

[Zantetsuken]

Hi there forums poster Zantetsuken. If you read the OP of this thread then you'll see I do not hate crafting - far from it, as I think that the materia system will die off if dropped items aren't meldable. I might hate crafters, though - especially when they post stupid shit like [...]
,

For as much disdain for crafters as you seem to have, I'm rather shocked that you don't seem to have an issue over /groveling at their feet in order to get them to meld your U/U items -- Or will that be your next rant should U/U melding become a reality?

I've said this before, and I'll say it here: Forbidden meld gear should be more powerful than U/U gear. A higher risk and cost of failure should always bring a much higher reward.

When you fail a forbidden meld, you lose multiple materia and items. If the items and materia lost are top tier, it will often be equal to a loss of tens of millions of gil.

When you fail an Ifrit battle, or DH run what have you lost? 60 minutes max? Maybe some gear durability and tapers? Sure it takes a bit of skill (but not much once you have practiced), and the drop rates make it seem a like a slot machine. But face it, when you wipe, you are no worse off then when you entered.

Yes, U/U drops should be better.. at least as good as 2-meld items, but thats it. Unless the dev team decides that instances and primals require a 1 million gil entrance fee, I'll have no sympathy for those that whine about Forbidden melds > Instance gear.


You may not like the fact that it's a boring grind to level crafting, or that crafters on your server seem to hate you (I wonder why....) but leveling EVERY job is a grind. One involves killing the same group of mobs over and over again, another involves achieving a successful synthesis over and over again, and yet another involves hitting a gathering point over and over again. None of these take much skill and they are all glorified chores that unlock to profit/fun/etc in the end.

But that's an MMO for you.

[Madruk]

You're missing the key point here. By definition MMO stands for massively multiplayer. Not massively sit in town and grind best gear in game (or MSITGBGO). Under no circumstances should gear you can solo be anywhere near in power to gear you have to obtain with multiple players. Otherwise what's the point of the MMO? So the solo players can get their jolies? That's where Skyrim comes in with their broken enchanting/smithing system if they want that kind of system in their games. Even anyone who's played that game with maxed enchanting/smithing can attest to the fact that exploring dungeons lost their luster once they created the best one shot everything gear.

You can argue the lost gil, time, and gambling casino factor that it takes to meld gear. The fact is, you can do it completely solo. Guess how long it took me to get a full set of double materia gear? A week. A whole week to trump every item in the game besides weapons currently. If I wasn't waiting to see what else they completely redo and say lol-sorry, I'd probably have a full set of triple materia by now.

Like I said it's too early to tell because we don't have any real raids in the game. But if the trend of materia > anything you can get in multiplayer content continues, this game will be an embarrassing footnote in Square history.

[Stufoo]

For as much disdain for crafters as you seem to have, I'm rather shocked that you don't seem to have an issue over /groveling at their feet in order to get them to meld your U/U items. Crafters on your server seem to hate you (I wonder why....)

Quit assuming things. As much as you want to believe it, he doesn't hate crafters, and you are just being a spiteful bitch who can't grasp the ideas behind the thread.

I've said this before, and I'll say it here: Forbidden meld gear should be more powerful than U/U gear. A higher risk and cost of failure should always bring a much higher reward.

When you fail a forbidden meld, you lose multiple materia and items. If the items and materia lost are top tier, it will often be equal to a loss of tens of millions of gil.

Okay, so you are another one of the people hinging on the future itemization. Where are these multi-million dollar materials that you can lose? Have they announced anything of the sort? Cobalt pieces are like 10-15k each. We're going on the third patch of this new and supposedly final itemization system and there is absolutely no promise or reason for a brighter tomorrow. Are they in any way going to incorporate the battle classes into obtaining these new expensive crafted items, such as having the materials be boss drops? That's the true problem. We don't give a fuck if the items are crafted or not but we want a reason to leave the town to advance our character's gear. Like I've said before, there is a system that can be implemented that gives responsibilities and opportunities to all three types of players and they have not shown any signs of progress towards it, and it is absolutely disgusting how left out battle classes are in their own gear progression.

The items we have in game now are TRASH and it is a complete joke that you consider them worthy of competing with end-game drops through a 25% meld chance. When they add materials that come from behemoths and kujatas, and much rarer gathered items, those can compete with our dropped gears, not cobalt and rosewood that level 30s can dig up 500+ a day. This system is sickening and I speak that as a player, not a fighter or crafter or gatherer. There is no incentive to actually PLAY THE FUCKING GAME, and that's why we're complaining. The systems they are adding are no reason for hope either, and the only thing they've said on the subject is that it's not going to change.

They have no idea what they are doing or how to make a good system for all three types of players. Their silence is also not encouraging. Someone is getting fucked either way, and if dropped gear comes out that's better than 2-3 melded items then crafters will come here to complain that they are worthless, because people would rather play a game and do dungeons and fights than spam materia and just hope it doesn't blow up. The entire system is flawed it's not about crafters and materia.

[Zantetsuken]

[...]I do not hate crafting - far from it, as I think that the materia system will die off if dropped items aren't meldable.

Just so we are clear. He doesn't hate crafting.

I might hate crafters, though - especially when they post stupid shit like [...]

Well, that certainly would explain statements like:

Why do you think the materia system was created in the first place? It was to keep crafters relevant as the game evolves. Unfortunately they screwed up by not allowing U/U gear to be meldable and once again placed way too much power into the hands of crafters. Players should rely on crafters for materia, but not for the gear that it goes into (past entry-level stuff)

[...] Dropped gear should be better because it takes more people and requires a pulse to get.

You're right. If someone wins at a slot machine he deserves to outclass you in the gear you and your friends adventured to get. It's a very realistic system in that no matter how hard you work you'll never be as well off as someone who just gets lucky and is born into money or whatever.

I am fine with putting crafters out of business if the alternative is making real content (that isn't a dumb minigame or grinding wolves) useless

So yeah, he hates crafters, or at least is frothing-at-the-mouth jealous of them.

That said, I agree with people that want NM and dungeon drops to be better. But I do not agree that melding is the way to do it.

I would prefer that U/U drops be nearly equal to double-melded items, but also get unique stats that cannot be obtained through materia. Things like boosts to attack speed, Extra effects on attacking (which all the Primal weapons have), bonuses to flank attacks, and reductions in cool-down timers for specific skills would make U/U drops a viable option to materia gear.

But I have zero respect for those who complain that a +1 Winglet that is triple-melded with Heavens' Fist (which statistically costs 60 tier IV Heavens' Fist materia , 20 +1 winglets and 20 catalysts) will be doing slightly more DPS than ifrit's blade - something that a player is almost certain to get if he does the fight enough times - and at virtually no cost.

[NoctisUmbra]

But I have zero respect for those who complain that a +1 Winglet that is triple-melded with Heavens' Fist (which statistically costs 60 tier IV Heavens' Fist materia , 20 +1 winglets and 20 catalysts) will be doing slightly more DPS than ifrit's blade - something that a player is almost certain to get if he does the fight enough times - and at virtually no cost.

Just to add to this, I'd bet a large sum of gil on Ifrit's Blade still providing higher DPS than a Cobalt Winglet perfectly triple melded with Heaven's Fist IVs. Though, that can't even be tested since a GLA sword can't be melded with Heaven's Fist. Another reason why Ifrit's Blade is very desirable.

All I know is right now, the Blue W weapons we've gotten from Ifrit and Moogle are overall superior to crafted weapons - save for mages. I won't argue the mage point, since it's obvious the itemization for their weapons is quite bad at this point. Though even then the Maleficent Mogstaff is a lovely choice for THM - though unlike DoW weapons it can be bested with a materia-enhanced crafted weapon.

The point is that they carry indispensable, unique effects and/or stats that cannot be obtained for that slot via materia (ie. Attack Power on a Sword.)

A major argument before was that materia-enhanced gear was beating out looted W gear. We've learned since then that that's not the case. Best weapons for all DoW are the Ifrit and Mog weapons. So materia-crafted gear is not the best gear in the game. We just need some equally potent Blue W armor, since we've only been getting weapons.

Now, the other argument supporting melding of W gear - which is ironically contradictory with the previous one - is that provided the best gear in the game is W gear, then the materia system becomes useless. Now putting aside the fact that this argument is a stance against W gear being best in slot while the previous argument is for W gear being best in slot and that both of these arguments are coming from the same people - the statement that going down this path will render the materia system useless is entirely conjecture. The logical step is for the team to carry on along their vision, and should they observe at some point in the future that the materia system is becoming less and less used by the community they will without a doubt decide to make some changes.

The thought is that looted W gear will be valuable and best in game, yet will also make use of the materia system for further enhancement and/or customization. Problem with that is it isn't a solution to anything so much as a slap-on, lazy use of materia just to serve as an excuse to say "hey, you can use it now so it isn't useless." The reality of it is, all anyone will do with Ifrit and Mog weapons - given the ability to meld them - is meld it with the attribute for the class that increases their DPS, or in the case of mages some magic accuracy and/or healing potency. Only sounds useful for mages tbh. For DoW, it's simply taking the best and making it even better.

Unique, in-demand and unattainable-via-materia stats on W gear will make them more than desirable for every slot. They simply need to get the itemization right.