Remove melee throw weapon abilities?

[CKNovel]

I don't think they should remove the "throw" or "melee-ranged" abilities but instead upgrade them.

They should not interrupt combo, that's already what makes them impractical.
In my opinion, they should be a combo, a 2 GCD combo filling gauge/resetting buff duration like current AoE combo actually do.

The tricky part would be to balance these abilities to make sure they're not a big loss, but strong enough to cover the moments where melees needs to take more risks than casters/ranged to just hit the boss.
It could be like the GNB's second combo, the first GCD is on an independant cooldown. Even with the current "Throw" not breaking combos, I doubt they would be used more than once every 30s.

I see two scenarios:
-Cooldown based GCD with a follow-up/special effect (Ex: Increase by XX potency your next melee GCD)
-Ranged Combo with gauge/self-buff refresh effect.

In any cases, ranged abilities for melees should not interrupt their combos.

[Akiudo]

I don't think they should remove the "throw" or "melee-ranged" abilities but instead upgrade them.

They should not interrupt combo, that's already what makes them impractical.
In my opinion, they should be a combo, a 2 GCD combo filling gauge/resetting buff duration like current AoE combo actually do.

The tricky part would be to balance these abilities to make sure they're not a big loss, but strong enough to cover the moments where melees needs to take more risks than casters/ranged to just hit the boss.
It could be like the GNB's second combo, the first GCD is on an independant cooldown. Even with the current "Throw" not breaking combos, I doubt they would be used more than once every 30s.

I see two scenarios:
-Cooldown based GCD with a follow-up/special effect (Ex: Increase by XX potency your next melee GCD)
-Ranged Combo with gauge/self-buff refresh effect.

In any cases, ranged abilities for melees should not interrupt their combos.

i wouldn't even make it so complicated, just buff them slighly/give some where non exist right now and make it so they don't interrupt combos, while where at it do the same for tanks, melees really don't need to have ranged rotations or whatever, just making it so that being out of range sucks slightly less than it does right now would totally do the trick

[SamRF]

I don't think they should remove the "throw" or "melee-ranged" abilities but instead upgrade them.

They should not interrupt combo, that's already what makes them impractical.
In my opinion, they should be a combo, a 2 GCD combo filling gauge/resetting buff duration like current AoE combo actually do.

The tricky part would be to balance these abilities to make sure they're not a big loss, but strong enough to cover the moments where melees needs to take more risks than casters/ranged to just hit the boss.
It could be like the GNB's second combo, the first GCD is on an independant cooldown. Even with the current "Throw" not breaking combos, I doubt they would be used more than once every 30s.

I see two scenarios:
-Cooldown based GCD with a follow-up/special effect (Ex: Increase by XX potency your next melee GCD)
-Ranged Combo with gauge/self-buff refresh effect.

In any cases, ranged abilities for melees should not interrupt their combos.

I think the fact that they do disrupt combo makes it a little more interesting as well as satisfying when you manage to finish a combo right before having to move away. It also give more value to the Skill Speed substat. I believe melee should still mostly be melee, they'd be half ranged if those throwing abilities didn't break combo and had a combo of themselves, it imo removes some of the charm of being a melee and I think you can expect an overall dps nerf to compensate for their ability to have no downtime at all without sacrificing anything.

[Akiudo]

I think the fact that they do disrupt combo makes it a little more interesting as well as satisfying when you manage to finish a combo right before having to move away. It also give more value to the Skill Speed substat. I believe melee should still mostly be melee, they'd be half ranged if those throwing abilities didn't break combo and had a combo of themselves, it imo removes some of the charm of being a melee and I think you can expect an overall dps nerf to compensate for their ability to have no downtime at all without sacrificing anything.

while i'm pretty sure square would just let this slide as "quality of life" just like a lot of other things that on paper shouldn't raise the potential of a class which in practice totally do buff a class at pretty much all percentiles this isn't so much about "losing nothing"

if you can do 100% damage in melee range or 50-75% of your damage while away from the boss you would still allways want to be close to the boss to maximize damage, that would not be "sacrificing nothing". problem is right now the ranged attacks melees (and tanks) have to offer are so weak, oftentimes its better to simply do nothing than to even use your ranged attack which is okay i guess, but at least as far as raids go it indeed makes them pretty redundant.

[ForteNightshade]

I think the fact that they do disrupt combo makes it a little more interesting as well as satisfying when you manage to finish a combo right before having to move away. It also give more value to the Skill Speed substat. I believe melee should still mostly be melee, they'd be half ranged if those throwing abilities didn't break combo and had a combo of themselves, it imo removes some of the charm of being a melee and I think you can expect an overall dps nerf to compensate for their ability to have no downtime at all without sacrificing anything.

There is zero interest in Piercing Talon were it breaking your combo makes it functionally worthless. It takes four uses for Piercing Talon to beat Full Thrust. And that isn't including the damage lost for breaking your combo. This is why it's actually better for Dragoons to do literally nothing than ever touch Piercing Talon. Even in E8S, which is absolutely brutal for melee, Dragoon will resort to their AoE combo or just do nothing since combos last 15 seconds.

All that aside, why would any of the Melee need a nerf? Even if they buffed Piercing Talon to say, 300 potency. It's still a damage loss, thus something you'll avoid. Of course, I'm also in the camp Range DPS shouldn't be taxed nearly as much (or really, at all). So buff them and it's all a wash.

[SamRF]

There is zero interest in Piercing Talon were it breaking your combo makes it functionally worthless. It takes four uses for Piercing Talon to beat Full Thrust. And that isn't including the damage lost for breaking your combo. This is why it's actually better for Dragoons to do literally nothing than ever touch Piercing Talon. Even in E8S, which is absolutely brutal for melee, Dragoon will resort to their AoE combo or just do nothing since combos last 15 seconds.

All that aside, why would any of the Melee need a nerf? Even if they buffed Piercing Talon to say, 300 potency. It's still a damage loss, thus something you'll avoid. Of course, I'm also in the camp Range DPS shouldn't be taxed nearly as much (or really, at all). So buff them and it's all a wash.

Okay then maybe an exception can be made for DRG or maybe some middle ground, I haven't leveld DRG myself so I can't comment on that. I just like the fact that you want to finish a combo before running off and would rather have ranged attacks not be something you'll just be spamming on impulse every time you move away, no matter your position on the combo, but rather something that's disruptive to your main rotation and needs to be considered before using. Most of my melee experience is with tanks though so maybe my preference isn't all that relevant to this topic.

[Eliadil]

Okay then maybe an exception can be made for DRG or maybe some middle ground, I haven't leveld DRG myself so I can't comment on that. I just like the fact that you want to finish a combo before running off and would rather have ranged attacks not be something you'll just be spamming on impulse every time you move away, no matter your position on the combo, but rather something that's disruptive to your main rotation and needs to be considered before using. Most of my melee experience is with tanks though so maybe my preference isn't all that relevant to this topic.

I understand what you're saying, however, keep in mind that while the basic rotation of a tank usually consist of 123 combo or eventually 124 sometimes as well, for a melee like dragoon or samurai, breaking combos is the equivalent of having to restart your whole rotation, because it delays a 8+ GCD rotation. As a dragoon you have to make sure that you can keep your dot up at all time, as well as your damage buff. Your rotation consist of a 10GCD loop that you cannot break because you risk losing either the dot or the damage buff if you're really unlucky. So breaking a combo here just means restarting the 10 GCD combo from the beginning. As a samurai this gets even worse, because by breaking a combo you delay a Midare, which is mandatory to proc Tsubame, your 1min burst. You don't delay it by one GCD however, you delay it by a full Midare rotation (9GCD), which can be really detrimental once you begin to look at party raid buffs.

Monk doesn't have this issue, but it doesn't suffer as much as the other melees due to meditation, just like Ninja can maybe plan a ninjutsu to avoid an aoe. But for the other two, the question isn't even there. You can't use your ranged attack because it messes everything.
Tbh, I would be surprised to see an actual opportunity present itself more than three time in the whole expansion for both jobs, and I don't see the devs planning a fight and thinking "oh what if we put an aoe there, so the melee can avoid it AND use their ranged attack for once ?"

Ranged attack is a dps loss on melees anyway. But just making the option available would be better than not having it at all.

[Liam_Harper]

I think the fact that they do disrupt combo makes it a little more interesting as well as satisfying when you manage to finish a combo right before having to move away. It also give more value to the Skill Speed substat. I believe melee should still mostly be melee, they'd be half ranged if those throwing abilities didn't break combo and had a combo of themselves, it imo removes some of the charm of being a melee and I think you can expect an overall dps nerf to compensate for their ability to have no downtime at all without sacrificing anything.

You're being sarcastic right? Tell me you're just trolling...

[Kabooa]

You're being sarcastic right? Tell me you're just trolling...

The less conflict a kit has, the less interesting it is to make any choices within them.

Making something desirable to use is easy, but making it meaningful as well is where it gets difficult.

[Eliadil]

The less conflict a kit has, the less interesting it is to make any choices within them.

Making something desirable to use is easy, but making it meaningful as well is where it gets difficult.

I mean... The meaning and the goal is to prevent dps loss from forced downtime. I don't really see how you could do more meaningful than this.