It's time (Option to Hide other players Glamour)

[Iscah]

Nobody is choosing anybodies attire or "limiting" anyone. They are still free to dress as they please.

Except that, as this discussion has made repeatedly clear, there are two very different ways of looking at it, and people do see that as letting someone else choose what they wear. It's still their character being presented in a way they didn't choose and may feel uncomfortable about.

You can make your argument be about the green metallic pigs who are doing it to annoy, but it's not the only motivation people have for not wanting their character altered. As we have covered so very many times here.

You can have your own opinion on whether their feelings outweighs your desire to not see their outfit, but it doesn't stop people from feeling that way. You are choosing the attire of an extension of their character or personal avatar if you have the ability to alter other players' characters, whether they care or not.

The only question is where the border lies between their rights and yours, and increasing your rights cannot happen without decreasing theirs.

[Krotoan]

Except that, as this discussion has made repeatedly clear, there are two very different ways of looking at it, and people do see that as letting someone else choose what they wear. It's still their character being presented in a way they didn't choose and may feel uncomfortable about.

Yes. Entirely a perception problem. Which is weird when a lot of counter arguments to this supposed encroachment upon their self expression are to tell people that it's THEIR problem and they should just tolerate it. Not that that's your argument but if you're going to say there's another way to look at it, you have to consider both perspectives.

You can make your argument be about the green metallic pigs who are doing it to annoy, but it's not the only motivation people have for not wanting their character altered. As we have covered so very many times here.

I will not deny some people have non antagonistic reasons for not wanting the option there, but it is a very common response even within this thread to immediately suggest that they're going to go be as obnoxious as possible on purpose just because they can. The fact that these posts come out as often as they do makes me think this isn't as isolated a mindset as some would have you think. Truly there will always be a loser, but as someone who could give a wet slap about what some random on the internet sees and someone who knows for a fact there are those literally getting their jollies from redressing my character as they see fit with no restriction, I don't feel this option is all that oppressive or worse an alternative. That's of course personal perspective, but it seems that's all we're arguing at this point.

You can have your own opinion on whether their feelings outweighs your desire to not see their outfit, but it doesn't stop people from feeling that way. You are choosing the attire of an extension of their character or personal avatar if you have the ability to alter other players' characters, whether they care or not.

The only question is where the border lies between their rights and yours, and increasing your rights cannot happen without decreasing theirs.

Whether my right to experience something I've paid for in the way that I wish on my personal property trumps their desire to look a certain way on my computer.
Nobody has any right to tell me what I have to see on my computer. Just as nobody has any right to tell you what to wear on your own body. However if i made AR goggles that superimposed clown outfits on everyone I looked at, what argument would you have?

Again.. stop equating a virtual and mutable experience into real life expression and oppression. It is not the same.

[Theodric]

I'd argue that, for the sake of fairness, if the game's established aesthetics were changed based on a portion of the community being very vocal about their 'need' for silly looking glamour then it's fair for other players to have the option to hide such things on their screen. As a client side option, it's a pretty sensible compromise that doesn't really step on anybody's toes.

Nobody's character is actually them - so they're not being 'attacked' just because other players do not want to see particular character designs upon their screen.

[Iscah]

Yes. Entirely a perception problem. Which is weird when a lot of counter arguments to this supposed encroachment upon their self expression are to tell people that it's THEIR problem and they should just tolerate it. Not that that's your argument but if you're going to say there's another way to look at it, you have to consider both perspectives.

Except that you just declared the other perspective doesn't exist.

I've said before - I don't like the ugly animal costumes either. But I'll put up with it because I've thought about both perspectives and I think that the approach that gives each person control of their own self in a shared world is more important than the one that lets people say "I don't like how you're dressed in this picture, so I'm going to change it to suit my taste". Even if I don't like some of what I see as a result - because I'd rather put up with that than encroach on other people who, like me, feel uncomfortable about the idea that someone could do that to them.

Nobody has any right to tell me what I have to see on my computer. Just as nobody has any right to tell you what to wear on your own body. However if i made AR goggles that superimposed clown outfits on everyone I looked at, what argument would you have?

Again.. stop equating a virtual and mutable experience into real life expression and oppression. It is not the same.

I would be horrified by the AR goggles. It's an increasingly real possibility and I hate it because I would never want to be seen like that - or any other thing they could load into the same program. The mere thought of it makes my skin crawl.

It doesn't physically affect me or change me, but the knowledge that someone else is seeing it is where the discomfort lies. And I would sure as anything want to know who is wearing the goggles so I can stay far away from them. It's wrong to me at a deep instinctive level.

And by extension, if not with the same deep intensity, my character is representing me and therefore I don't want that representation altered.

Disagree with the importance of it, but don't say it wouldn't have an effect on anyone, because it would.

[Krotoan]

Except that you just declared the other perspective doesn't exist.

I understand the other perspective exists, and I acknowledge that for those people the fear and apprehension is very real. I also have noticed is RARE by speaking to many people online and off. Now while I don't particularly enjoy causing anyone else distress, I also don't have a problem with telling people their fears and apprehensions are unhealthy and irrational. From my perspective, you should understand that I think the opposition has an unrealistic expectation for online representation and to convince me that I should acknowledge their particular psychological hangup and prioritize it over my personal (and widely shared) perspective of what online representation means and what I can gain from this change, you will need to fundamentally change my values.. a very difficult proposition.

I've said before - I don't like the ugly animal costumes either. But I'll put up with it because I've thought about both perspectives and I think that the approach that gives each person control of their own self in a shared world is more important than the one that lets people say "I don't like how you're dressed in this picture, so I'm going to change it to suit my taste".

Everyone should have control over their own experience, except when it encroaches upon others experiences... except when someone wants to modify their own perception in a way undetectable to any parties involved. This is the part I keep coming back to and having trouble accepting as rational thought:

"I will have no idea that you've done this thing, but the mere idea it is possible terrifies/disgusts/threatens me"

Even if I don't like some of what I see as a result - because I'd rather put up with that than encroach on other people who, like me, feel uncomfortable about the idea that someone could do that to them.

I feel uncomfortable thinking about people fantasizing about embarrassing or humiliating me. But I know people regularly do it and I accept that. Because why should I have the power to stop what others do in their own worlds and perception? Why does any of that matter to me. I accept that people I interact with daily are possibly imagining doing disgusting or violent things to me, VIVIDLY. Because worrying about how the rest of the world perceives you beyond a professional level or outside of a intimate relationship will drive you INSANE or at the very least give you anxiety.

I suggest a feature that in my opinion any sane person who can cope with the reality that they are only in control of their immediate surroundings and personal actions would accept as functional and unobtrusive.

I would be horrified by the AR goggles. It's an increasingly real possibility and I hate it because I would never want to be seen like that - or any other thing they could load into the same program. The mere thought of it makes my skin crawl.

Better protest technology then, because we are most definitely well within that realm. It would take a competent AR programmer maybe a month to whip something up using already widely used body/face recognition and 3d mapping. Probably less. And it is something the quite powerful processor and already build in multiple angle cameras in todays phones can handle, real time. We already have very VERY similar software out there and integrated into social media apps and sites.

It's possible, you cannot do ANYTHING to stop it. What are you going to do about it? Quake in fear and have panic attacks 24/7? Or accept that this is something that is now part of the world and keep living your life?

It doesn't physically affect me or change me, but the knowledge that someone else is seeing it is where the discomfort lies. And I would sure as anything want to know who is wearing the goggles so I can stay far away from them. It's wrong to me at a deep instinctive level.


And by extension, if not with the same deep intensity, my character is representing me and therefore I don't want that representation altered.

Disagree with the importance of it, but don't say it wouldn't have an effect on anyone, because it would.

I will admit it will have effects on someone, but I will argue those effects are as completely self inflicted and the perpetuation of the idea that it is a healthy and normal reaction are not a great idea.
When I say it will have no perceivable effect on someone, I mean the consequences are entirely self inflicted. There is no external stimulus creating this reaction beyond the knowledge of the features existence. Unlike those being effected by glamours, who need to experience the "expression" of others in order to live in the FFXIV world.


Your expectation of "purity of representation" is entirely unfounded. Even in the real world you have no guarantee that people are perceiving you as you so desire. As is with any other representation you can "present" as you wish but you cannot force people to perceive as you wish.

[Iscah]

Your expectation of "purity of representation" is entirely unfounded. Even in the real world you have no guarantee that people are perceiving you as you so desire. As is with any other representation you can "present" as you wish but you cannot force people to perceive as you wish.

I can't guarantee how people interpret my appearance, but I have control over what that appearance is.

[Reinha]

people do see that as letting someone else choose what they wear. It's still their character being presented in a way they didn't choose and may feel uncomfortable about.

It's not choosing what they wear, it's choosing not to see what they wear. They are still wearing what they are wearing. If attention seekers get uncomfortable because people aren't looking at them, that's their problem.

[Canada_bangs]

I will admit it will have effects on someone, but I will argue those effects are as completely self inflicted and the perpetuation of the idea that it is a healthy and normal reaction are not a great idea.
When I say it will have no perceivable effect on someone, I mean the consequences are entirely self inflicted. There is no external stimulus creating this reaction beyond the knowledge of the features existence. Unlike those being effected by glamours, who need to experience the "expression" of others in order to live in the FFXIV world.


Your expectation of "purity of representation" is entirely unfounded. Even in the real world you have no guarantee that people are perceiving you as you so desire. As is with any other representation you can "present" as you wish but you cannot force people to perceive as you wish.

To be fair like I said earlier. You can't stop people from feeling how they will feel. If this was here the fact it was there will make people feel badly and they will act on it. Which is why I mentioned there would need to be an option for them to counter that. Otherwise you'll be creating tons of drama. It's easier to just not make the feature but if they ever did they would have to give an option for the otherside. And the end it'll just go into the " if you don't like it play with people who agree with you and deal." And that'll be for both sides. Tho I ask, why can't we just do that now. You'll never be able to fully control other people randomly, so it's best to just block them out best you can like you can in real life and live your life. People will be people.

[Canada_bangs]

It's not choosing what they wear, it's choosing not to see what they wear. They are still wearing what they are wearing. If attention seekers get uncomfortable because people aren't looking at them, that's their problem.

You can say the same about people on the other side of this coin. If people are so uncomfortable because people dress how they want to dress then that's their problem. It goes both ways.

[YellowCrystarium]

Forcing players to be displayed in a way that is not in accordance with their wishes is, as far as
I know, strictly forbidden in this game.

There's no reasonable position to expect they would suddenly sanction such a change. Should also consider that most people cultivate an image that is largely centered on how others perceive them, rather than self perception, and thus it matters quite a bit for someone else to supercede that image.

And if people know without a doubt that all that effort is for nothing, you can kiss the glamour market goodbye. Why bother spending gil to get the latest look, or grind for the materials to craft it? Why purchase mogstation outfits?

Ultimately that's just a few of the many reasons it won't happen. And for all the opposition's talk of compromise, they've overlooked the simplest one of all: "get over it".

People who use glamour mods are already forcing players to be displayed in a way that is not in accordance with their wishes, so that point is moot.

Why bother spending gil to get the latest look? I know, so I can enjoy how my character appears on my screen, I don't care what other people think about my style. The same applies to mogstation outfits. I don't play for other people's validation and adoration.

So yes, get over it honey.