Results of a reddit job satisfaction poll

[Mansion]

My two cents there.

I remember being REALLY angry at 5.0 launch because my main jobs were not enjoyable anymore for me (SMN, RDM and AST). To the point where I gave up savage raiding in 5.0 and waited for 5.1 to see job adjustments which kinda made it for me and now I'm having more fun.
Although, I do feel there's less complexity to jobs. I'm not an optimal player, but I understand what is going on in most job kits. And 5.0 made it less interesting for me, that's about it. Any modification feels like "dumbing down" or "fake difficulty" (RDM comes to mind here).

Being a bad tank, I enjoyed agro changes so that's less for me to mind. But as a DPS/healer, I actually enjoyed Diversion / Lucid Dreaming in that respect. I enjoyed external MP management with mana shift / Refresh. I feel dumb as a caster to only have Addle for the raid when other roles have a Silence or Stun. I miss Apocastasis.
One by one that's not much, but it's more than the some of the parts here. I don't feel like rotations now keep us busier so that we don't have to manage MP / agro / mitigation.

[Taybat]

In otherwords Monk needs help

[Melichoir]

My two cents there.

I remember being REALLY angry at 5.0 launch because my main jobs were not enjoyable anymore for me (SMN, RDM and AST). To the point where I gave up savage raiding in 5.0 and waited for 5.1 to see job adjustments which kinda made it for me and now I'm having more fun.
Although, I do feel there's less complexity to jobs. I'm not an optimal player, but I understand what is going on in most job kits. And 5.0 made it less interesting for me, that's about it. Any modification feels like "dumbing down" or "fake difficulty" (RDM comes to mind here).

Being a bad tank, I enjoyed agro changes so that's less for me to mind. But as a DPS/healer, I actually enjoyed Diversion / Lucid Dreaming in that respect. I enjoyed external MP management with mana shift / Refresh. I feel dumb as a caster to only have Addle for the raid when other roles have a Silence or Stun. I miss Apocastasis.
One by one that's not much, but it's more than the some of the parts here. I don't feel like rotations now keep us busier so that we don't have to manage MP / agro / mitigation.

The tank changes pretty much dumbed down tanking to literally turn on tank stance, hit boss, have aggro. There's no more managing that factor. I mean if they dumbed down that aspect, why not dumb down CDs too. Just give all tanks 50% damage reduction so they dont need to manage tank CDs either. Even then, for making tnaking easier, they failed to increase the skill ceiling when it comes to rotation or other aspects. In the case of DRK, they made it even easier in that department. So it was a downward trend for style and skill for tanks, and that sucks.

And they did it for one reason: To get more people to play tank. If you take this consideration with how homogenious Healer is getting, I would not be surprised if it went down teh same route - Over simplify the kit to get more players to play healer.

As for other skills like Apoc and what not, that was their solution to breaking metas. You need less synergy with other classes to be optimal. In SB, Ninja was almost a must have cause of TA. Not anymore. Which is good, but its also bad. Again, things got simplified.

This is not a good trend IMO for the game, cause once you drop player skill expectations, it almost never comes back. Look how many people say the EX for the relic weapon is way to hard and is akin to savage content.

[Deceptus]

And they did it for one reason: To get more people to play tank. If you take this consideration with how homogenious Healer is getting, I would not be surprised if it went down teh same route - Over simplify the kit to get more players to play healer.

SE Dev's don't "have to go down that same route", they're already there. Healer is brain dead easy to play as well (save AST, but they're special)

[Melichoir]

SE Dev's don't "have to go down that same route", they're already there. Healer is brain dead easy to play as well (save AST, but they're special)

My understanding that as it currently stands, out side of specific mechanics, healers heal through oGCDs. They shouldve given healers a DPS rotation then, or adjusted healing to be GCD based with oGCD procs for DPS. But Im not a healer main so I dont even know which would be better or funner.

Tanks need to be brought up to GNB though kit wise. Also, they need to bring back threat management.

[Crushnight]

My understanding that as it currently stands, out side of specific mechanics, healers heal through oGCDs. They shouldve given healers a DPS rotation then, or adjusted healing to be GCD based with oGCD procs for DPS. But Im not a healer main so I dont even know which would be better or funner.

Tanks need to be brought up to GNB though kit wise. Also, they need to bring back threat management.

Correct the intended goal is to use as little gcds as possible on healing as possible, the same goal the community has had since HW though it was there just not as prominent in ARR.

With more ogcd heals the more downtime is given however SE in their wisdom decided to strip all healers downtime tools down while increasing the amount of ogcd heals, we can only speculate why, but a good guess is to make them all accessible to anyone who wants to try them, this of course makes them all feel similar as each healer is 1,1,1,1,1,1,2,1,1,1,1,1,1 etc dps rotation for downtime and worse solo play, and you do that far more often even fresher healers feel this drag earlier since all healers have this for over 70 levels of gameplay the animation changes as you level up but what you do doesn't.

Simplest way to describe what they did to healers for you is if they took every tank kits and reduced all abilities to this;
-1 single target dps ability
-1 aoe dps ability
-1 ranged dps ability
-rest of abilities are cds with variations on cds based on tank job's gimmick except 1 tank (just 1) can influence rDps but miniscule % where you need an illegal parser to determine who best to buff at that given time while giving it upwards to 3x the button inputs for controller players due to party targeting.

All that with no changes to battle content design.

Sounds fun right especially for seasoned tanks who have played for years on end, you can easily do your job as a tank with the above setup but it damn well be boring.

[Esmoire]

As a tank main myself, while I don't mind enmity management being taken out of the game, I do feel they could have leveraged more complexity to compensate. I am not going to pretend enmity management was rocket science; WAR had two different openers for fast threat and after that for 99% of content you would never really have to think about it again. That said, while I am not invested enough in DRK and PLD to speak for them, I don't like how the same expansion took away the crit bonus from our Beast Gauge. Trying to have as high gauge as possible without overcapping was like just another small but crucial detail that helped to set two WAR players apart.

I don't mind that the "minimum" for tanking and healing is easy, but I'd like if the next expansion could push for more skill-indexing. That is to say, for people who want to take their job to the next level, the payout for doing so is there. I realize that tab target MMOs are a bit limited in that regard but there's still a lot of little things they could do have meaningful depth while still being a very accessible game to get into.

[ForteNightshade]

The tank changes pretty much dumbed down tanking to literally turn on tank stance, hit boss, have aggro. There's no more managing that factor. I mean if they dumbed down that aspect, why not dumb down CDs too. Just give all tanks 50% damage reduction so they dont need to manage tank CDs either. Even then, for making tnaking easier, they failed to increase the skill ceiling when it comes to rotation or other aspects. In the case of DRK, they made it even easier in that department. So it was a downward trend for style and skill for tanks, and that sucks.

And they did it for one reason: To get more people to play tank. If you take this consideration with how homogenious Healer is getting, I would not be surprised if it went down teh same route - Over simplify the kit to get more players to play healer.

As for other skills like Apoc and what not, that was their solution to breaking metas. You need less synergy with other classes to be optimal. In SB, Ninja was almost a must have cause of TA. Not anymore. Which is good, but its also bad. Again, things got simplified.

This is not a good trend IMO for the game, cause once you drop player skill expectations, it almost never comes back. Look how many people say the EX for the relic weapon is way to hard and is akin to savage content.

The irony is they wound up with less healers, or at the very least, the status quo. Although, who knows. Maybe there are more in the earlier expansions, and that's the number they're focusing on. The dev team has a bad tendency to cater extremely heavily to new players but not consider maintaining the interest of long term players. Sadly, I can't exactly say it isn't working for them given the numbers ShB has boasted.

As much as I enjoy current Tanks shape (and find it probably the best rework so far in terms of funcionality and opening possibilites, even though for some people the role became boring), the community's focus on "we need more damage, you need more damage, everyone need more damage" baffles me. I know that our encounters with their dps cheks design are partly at fault for this, but it's still annoying. I'm a tank, I'm playing my job to tank.

At this point, what we should have is not redesigning jobs (again) but going away from "do as much damage as possible" design to "do mechanics right and clear the encounter thanks to this". To be fair, it already works like this to some extent, it just would be nice if it was the main focus, with mechanics that obviously separate each role from each other so people would actually feel that some things can be only done by a specific role, and not by "blue/green/red dps". Because just redesigning jobs again and again won't really help without a bit of tweaking on battle design itself, it should happen in tandem.

What else is there for tanks to focus on? Even prior to the enmity changes. There was literally zero importance to the actual tank complexity beyond "hit a CD before the tank buster." The community's focus on damage derived from the game incentivizing nothing else. Prior to Shadowbringers, Tank Stance was complete garbage; essentially punishing tanks with a massive damage penalty for no reason as the community showed they could hold aggro without stance. Furthermore, mitigation is finite—more so in a game with scripted encounters. If I know Vengeance will be enough to comfortably survive the tank buster, adding Rampart isn't going to make it better. I'm just wasting a CD.

People need to stop pointing the finger at the community for the blue and green DPS mindset. They are both the result of FFXIV being a damage centric game with minimal focus or reward for playing defensive. When you make everything about damage, people tend to only concern themselves with damage.

Unfortunately the Tank community communicated, by way of the behavior that I described before, that they just want to do more damage. So now you can put on a stance and whale away. I know not every tank was like this--many also took their roles seriously and enjoyed the challenge of maintaining a balance between enmity and dps but unfortunately a large portion of the community decided they liked it better when everyone else did their job for them, so now you can just wear a stance and dance (but not stance-dance, them days are over).

Because everyone else had a more efficient way of handling it. Diversion had no cost associated with its usage whereas tank stance did; a 25% penalty to your damage. It wasn't simply a tank loss but a whole party loss. Fun fact, the DPS loss in Stormblood was so high for tanks, it was actually a party wide gain if Monks used Purification. Let that sink in for a moment. It was a party gain for a DPS to give up one of their more potent abilities than having the tank go into tank stance and do a combo or two, Warrior with Unchained notwithstanding.

That isn't the community not wanting to "do their job." It's poor design that tank stance was so arbitrarily bad no one wanted or needed to use it.

[Dianoia]

On MNK, another form + two GCDs would be great. Giving an ability that gives max stacks of GL + Chakra would be helpful, too, and would solve the otherwise messy openers. Finally eliminate the RNG of Chakras and dump the bloat of phase change abilities. Make Tornado Kick usable when GL is at maximum, but have it not use up the GL stacks and on a CD. If we have an ability that gives us max GL + chakra, anatman is useless. Keep SSS as it is.

[Halivel]

What else is there for tanks to focus on? Even prior to the enmity changes. There was literally zero importance to the actual tank complexity beyond "hit a CD before the tank buster." The community's focus on damage derived from the game incentivizing nothing else. Prior to Shadowbringers, Tank Stance was complete garbage; essentially punishing tanks with a massive damage penalty for no reason as the community showed they could hold aggro without stance. Furthermore, mitigation is finite—more so in a game with scripted encounters. If I know Vengeance will be enough to comfortably survive the tank buster, adding Rampart isn't going to make it better. I'm just wasting a CD.

That's... pretty much what I was talking about tho? That moving encounters' design focus from DPS to mechanics and utilities will change the situation even without another redesign of jobs (and, as a result, will change community's "we need more dps/dps skills(healers)" mindset too)? That if roles will actually spend 95% time doing their role job they won't have a reason to whine "why I have only 1-2-3 combo" or "why I have only 1 dps button". Maybe my wording wasn't the best.