New Relic weapon quest - are we down to 1 hour content already?

[Mindiori]

If you can't comprehend the reasoning behind the inherent design philosophy of 'grind' and why it is applied to this genre, especially in the current global climate; then ofcourse the discussion is pretty redundant.

There is no collective or associative value in instant gratification. Because achievement itself, is relative to its environment and playerbase. If we accept that most things in this game aren't difficult to achieve, then the only remaining barrier present is time. Without it, a larger part of the significance of ownership or reaching a milestone is lost. Half the value lies in the journey and the work; hence your argument that engaging gameplay trumps grind. Which would be the case, if this were not an MMO. A genre that draws much of its value from itemisation - and the aspiration to achieve something, amongst a sea of peers. There is little comparative achievement in something given easily and universally, with no competitive placement.

Its all well and good that you appreciate your own perspective. But yours is but one.

[Iscah]

If you can't comprehend the reasoning behind the inherent design philosophy of 'grind' and why it is applied to this genre, especially in the current global climate; then ofcourse the discussion is pretty redundant.

But still - I don't understand where the appeal is in being made to do something you wouldn't want to do otherwise.

Why is grinding 100 FATEs for your own amusement unbearable, but grinding 100 FATEs to earn your weapon considered an accomplishment?

What makes people say they want to be forced to do something they will not find fun and would rather not do, just to fill in their time?

Please explain because I cannot comprehend it.

There are things in life you do have to work for, because that's the way the real physical world works. But being made to do something repeatedly in a videogame once or ten times or a thousand times is entirely arbitrary.

[MsQi]

If you can't comprehend the reasoning behind the inherent design philosophy of 'grind' and why it is applied to this genre, especially in the current global climate; then ofcourse the discussion is pretty redundant.

Grinds and other repetitive content exist to keep people subbed. It is impossible create enough unique content that would keep people playing 40+ hours a week. You can't create an hours worth of content within an hour. You'd be lucky to do it in a week. So they need to make you do it more than once. This is why we have things like daily quests.

Because of the way this game is, with multiple jobs, it becomes repetition within repetition. The quest line isn't to difficult, and presents a decent story. If you have more jobs you have to do a little more work. If you are doing every job it can be quite a grind. I think that's a fair balanced approach and this is only the first step.

[Lersayil]

But still - I don't understand where the appeal is in being made to do something you wouldn't want to do otherwise.

Why is grinding 100 FATEs for your own amusement unbearable, but grinding 100 FATEs to earn your weapon considered an accomplishment?

What makes people say they want to be forced to do something they will not find fun and would rather not do, just to fill in their time?

Please explain because I cannot comprehend it.

There are things in life you do have to work for, because that's the way the real physical world works. But being made to do something repeatedly in a videogame once or ten times or a thousand times is entirely arbitrary.

You basically answered your question. Its a type of work. One you choose to do, because in the end it will pay off. It's a cost-benefit analysis between time invested, enjoyment during that time, and end reward. If there is no (proper) reward, and the content isn't enjoyable, its a chore. If the reward is necessary, but the enjoyment low, its a job. If the time investment is low, then the reward loses much of its perceived value. If the (subjective) balance between the three factors is a positive, you basically have a hobby.

Good grinds are usually balanced in a way where rewards are great, enjoyment of the process is somewhere in the positive side (usually just barely), and the time investment is high.

Its much like how people don't like easy raids. There is no sense of achievement, just free rewards. Its just taxing in a different way.

For an MMO its kind of important to insert time fillers like this, as they cannot provide enough content to maintain a stable subscriber population in the long term otherwise.

Example: I paint Warhammer 40K figures. I hate painting. I'm not doing it for the fun of the process, but the extreme satisfaction when I finish, and they turn out great.

[RokkuEkkusu]

I'll give my further assessment of the current Relic situation.

I already have all of the i485 Disciples of War and Magic Relic weapons in little over two weeks. Simple, yet time consuming. Those poetics drop like candy from roulettes, previous 50/60/70 end-game dungeons, hunt trains, etc. Great way to gear up my alt classes/jobs. However, I didn't appreciate that it invalidated the most of the Ruby Weapons easily with the ease of earning the i485 weapon and having 5 guaranteed open materia slots. This is especially when the healer weapons have high critical hit numbers and may favor players who meld their the tank relic weapons with Direct Hit Materia. I'll be patient and see what happens with the later relic steps.

Onto the secret Extreme trial. Although this trial ain't even close to being one of the harder ones, it still requires competency of following mechanics and the Duty Bar to clear the trial. I enjoyed the fight for earning tank mount wins, decent way to gear alt roles without the weekly lockout, earned gear having 5 open materia slots, and a fun battle overall. However, it wasn't a good idea to lock the dyeable AF4 armor behind this fight because dyeable AF armor was traditionally obtainable through more casual means and quite a bit of players are not ready to deal with plethora of mechanics in this secret EX trial despite its very lenient DPS requirement to beat the Enrage. The question remains are when and how the devs will create a casual method of earning the dyeable AF4 gear down the line.

[Lambdafish]

You basically answered your question. Its a type of work. One you choose to do, because in the end it will pay off. It's a cost-benefit analysis between time invested, enjoyment during that time, and end reward. If there is no (proper) reward, and the content isn't enjoyable, its a chore. If the reward is necessary, but the enjoyment low, its a job. If the time investment is low, then the reward loses much of its perceived value. If the (subjective) balance between the three factors is a positive, you basically have a hobby.

Good grinds are usually balanced in a way where rewards are great, enjoyment of the process is somewhere in the positive side (usually just barely), and the time investment is high.

Its much like how people don't like easy raids. There is no sense of achievement, just free rewards. Its just taxing in a different way.

For an MMO its kind of important to insert time fillers like this, as they cannot provide enough content to maintain a stable subscriber population in the long term otherwise.

Example: I paint Warhammer 40K figures. I hate painting. I'm not doing it for the fun of the process, but the extreme satisfaction when I finish, and they turn out great.

You just summed up the big problem I have with the game. The content released is fine, the fights are fun, there is things to do, but the balance between time investment and reward is horrible.

[Theodric]

The appeal of a long term grind is in the incentives offered. Eureka was brilliant on that front, since it offered not only a relic weapon but a bunch of minions, emotes, mounts, glamour options and other goodies along the way.

Many of which could be bought and sold on the market board, making for a tidy profit and allowing those who just wanted the bonus items to buy them outright.

I'm hoping Bozja is set up similarly. The game desperately needs something 'meaty' that is relevant for more than just a few weeks.

[Morningstar1337]

I can think of a few ideas for what that instant might drop:

• IR dyes: For those that don't dabble in crafting much
• Ivalice inspired minions. Like Wind-up versions of the espers (including XII's version of Zodiark), characters from XII (Fran asideofc)/Tactics and various XII mobs like the clockwork spiders
• Ivalice inspired minions, like those same spiders, gators, Slavens etc.
• For Emotes and Hairstyles, we could do with more curly-haired options,more pigtailed styles (soemthing like Nui's from Kill la Kill perhaps?), some Ivalive-inspired emotes and other things.

[SamSmoot]

It's been a lot longer for me. I have complete the whole invalice quest series, along with the three raids in it. (Still trying to learn Orbonne). Once I'm done with all that, I can finally start the relic-specific content (maybe)..

[Xatsh]

The long term grind gives people something to do is the point. That is the draw to it for many.

For those playing 10-20hrs a week this game has ample content to keep you occupied. Those playing in the 30-40hr a week time frame that have been playing for years... well yea there simply is not enough to do. That combined with what do you do once you have stuff on farm? Savage = 2hrs, capping tomes = 3hrs, primals are farmed out in 2-3 weeks of a 4month cycle, looking at ~10max hours of content a week. Even crafting/gathering have issues... example have 250mill gil and a large fully furnished house so why play the economy you can buy anything you want. And no playing another game while more content is created is not an acceptable answer despite what Yoshi-P says, that is not how mmos work. You cannot keep communities together when 40-75% of them quit every 6 weeks. That mentality only works for the solo player mentality.

That is where "grindy" content comes in. It gives people something to do while new content is made. I was looking forward to the relic because I could work on it outside raiding/leveling. It was something I could occupy all my time with while we waited on more raid tiers to come out. Grind exist in mmos because no mmo dev can release enough non-grindy content without an unlimited budget and staff size. MMOs either must have grind... or devs need to release enough content to occupy ppls time. So in my eyes SE either needs to hire 500-700 more ppl and churn out 10-20xs the amount extremely casual content they are currently (talking about nearly a whole initial expansion release worth of content per major 4-5 month patch)... or simply add something with a worthwhile reward (top tier endgame equivalent) that takes time to accomplish (Grind). Eureka being centered around fate spam was not good design... fates have never been a good design. But the zone concept and progression speed was good, the content just needed to be better inside it.

The new content was very well designed... but it failed in the sense of keeping people occupied and keeping the playerbase subbed longterm. So in my eyes way to much quality and not enough quantity. It is a bell curve low quality and high quantity and high quality and low quantity both = crap content in the end. 1 Really Sucks to do but keeps you occupied. 1 is really fun to do then you are bored again an hour later.

SE is saying they are releasing a grindier part next... that is their mistake They needed to release both this patch and next patch at the same time preferably at the start of 5.2.