What do you guys think is the cause of severe lack of Tank users?

[Lyth]

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I'm not talking about the textbook, face-saving, intellectually dishonest answer that typically gets parroted out as the reason. You can't control other players, but you can control yourself. Someone truly interested in efficiency would just take it in stride and push through more dps in response. I do this all the time; it takes a lot less effort than getting hot under the collar. Good tanks and healers are fluid like that. Unless pushing dps in place of spamming heals interrupts your netflix watching of course (what, are we still in the same instance?!)

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I just want consistency. We seem to be removing ways in which tanks impact gameplay because, gosh, we don't want to inconvenience other players if the tank is bad. But at the same time, we seem to want to give dps the lions share of impact when it comes to deciding whether we clear a check or not. And that's my point. People who pick tank do so because they're type A personalities that want both the responsibility and impact. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding on what drives people into these roles on the side of the development team.

[MerlinCross]

I just want consistency. We seem to be removing ways in which tanks impact gameplay because, gosh, we don't want to inconvenience other players if the tank is bad. But at the same time, we seem to want to give dps the lions share of impact when it comes to deciding whether we clear a check or not. And that's my point. People who pick tank do so because they're type A personalities that want both the responsibility and impact. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding on what drives people into these roles on the side of the development team.

And yet we still get blamed for failing the DPS check, not the DPS,because our damage is too low or we aren’t giving it our all, or some other excuse to dunk on us instead of the DPS. Odd how that works.

With how much Blame and Inconvenience we tanks seem to cause at least to some people, maybe we should delete the role.

Oh wait no that means the blame goes over to the healers

[ReiMakoto]

And yet we still get blamed for failing the DPS check, not the DPS,because our damage is too low or we aren’t giving it our all, or some other excuse to dunk on us instead of the DPS. Odd how that works.

With how much Blame and Inconvenience we tanks seem to cause at least to some people, maybe we should delete the role.

Oh wait no that means the blame goes over to the healers

If someones blaming the tank for a failed dps check, they either know the tank is sat with a thumb up their arse or theyre just a bad player throwing blame around. With how simplified the tank rotations are you dont even need to be giving it your all to avoid the ire of being blamed for a dps check

[Satarn]

And yet we still get blamed for failing the DPS check, not the DPS,because our damage is too low or we aren’t giving it our all, or some other excuse to dunk on us instead of the DPS. Odd how that works.

With how much Blame and Inconvenience we tanks seem to cause at least to some people, maybe we should delete the role.

Oh wait no that means the blame goes over to the healers

Can we stop this stupid bs of "oh woe is me, everyone is always blaming my role for everything and hating on us, when it's everyone else's fault!"? Healers do this a lot as well, perhaps even more so, but regardless - it's not a thing. It doesn't happen. Stop it. You're just making yourself look like a whiny baby.

Everyone screws up and everyone gets blamed for party's failures - sometimes deservedly, sometimes unjustly. Yes, some idiots will pass the blame to anyone else, but it's not role-exclusive by any means. You're not an effing martyr for playing tank/healer.

That's probably another part of why people don't want to play support roles - they hear everywhere about how tough it is, how everyone will hate on them, despite it not being even remotely true - just like the supposed difficulty.

[SamRF]

I'm not talking about the textbook, face-saving, intellectually dishonest answer that typically gets parroted out as the reason. You can't control other players, but you can control yourself. Someone truly interested in efficiency would just take it in stride and push through more dps in response. I do this all the time; it takes a lot less effort than getting hot under the collar. Good tanks and healers are fluid like that. Unless pushing dps in place of spamming heals interrupts your netflix watching of course (what, are we still in the same instance?!)

You won't see a healer get mad when DPS uses Second Wind or Warrior uses Nascent Flash or Equilibrium. I'm pretty sure there are some dungeons Warrior can clear with litteraly 0 heals from healer wall to wall because of its self healing.

Of course healers won't get annoyed when you self heal with oGCDs because they know you're playing well and are increasing efficiency. This is not the case with Clemency, which is I think why it frustrates when it's used when unnecessary.

Basically what it is, you do your best as healer to dps as much as possible (increase efficiency) and heal only when necessary, only to see all that "effort" and dps go to waste when you see that Clemency. It takes extra effort edge healing and you basically get repaid by getting your dps gain wasted due to them wasting their GCD while you likely had oGCDs or instant casts ready. This is not at all the case with non-healer oGCD healing because that doesn't waste dps, it may increase it instead.

In other words, it's the fact that your efforts in efficiency get nullified because the PLD decided to Clemency. I really think that's the main reason why Clemency is so frustrating, not the "encroachment of the healer role".

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

As someone who has never tanked and doesn't really want to tank, I have to say it has little to do with the responsibility of the role. I will say I'm a bit intimidated by the job as a controller user since I don't feel like there's an easy way to target specific enemies quickly and efficiently, but it's something that I'm sure I'd figure out with practice.

Controller is not an issue for tanking, using L2 + R1 or R2 + L1 makes targeting a lot more fluid. Of course it does have it's drawbacks, targeting the wrong add on occasion if the arena is super busy with mobs, but it's effectively the same as tab targeting for kb/m users. But tanking in general does takes some practice like anything in game.

[Lyth]

It's actually a trust issue. If you're not playing well, people generally don't care about the specifics. They just care that you're not up to snuff. Most players lack the insight to correct their own mistakes, let alone yours. Especially on the level of content that you're talking about.

But when you see a Paladin slow cast healing themselves back up, there's a bit of a subtext communicated that you're not healing enough. Likewise, when you see other players pulling for you as a tank, there's kind of a subtext that you're not pulling quickly enough. It's passive aggressive, and that's absolutely what people are reacting to. Anyone who claims to be only motivated on benevolent higher principles in this regard either lacks an understanding of fundamental human behaviour (including their own), or is just claiming otherwise to save face.

[Mavrias]

I'm not talking about the textbook, face-saving, intellectually dishonest answer that typically gets parroted out as the reason. You can't control other players, but you can control yourself. Someone truly interested in efficiency would just take it in stride and push through more dps in response. I do this all the time; it takes a lot less effort than getting hot under the collar. Good tanks and healers are fluid like that. Unless pushing dps in place of spamming heals interrupts your netflix watching of course (what, are we still in the same instance?!)

I just want consistency. We seem to be removing ways in which tanks impact gameplay because, gosh, we don't want to inconvenience other players if the tank is bad. But at the same time, we seem to want to give dps the lions share of impact when it comes to deciding whether we clear a check or not. And that's my point. People who pick tank do so because they're type A personalities that want both the responsibility and impact. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding on what drives people into these roles on the side of the development team.

I mean, who says i'm saying anything in the dungeon about it? I can find something stupid and not say anything, lmao. But, hey it's easy to dismiss something as intellectually dishonest, right?

The majority of my casts in a dungeon are art of war and broil, so idk where you get the idea that i don't push dps.


Also, "type A personalities" bro, some people just like aesthetics.

You should try savage or extreme (mostly savage, tbh) if you want responsibility or impact in any roll. Face roll dungeons and normal mode trials/ raids aren't where you're gonna find it.

[SamRF]

It's actually a trust issue. If you're not playing well, people generally don't care about the specifics. They just care that you're not up to snuff. Most players lack the insight to correct their own mistakes, let alone yours. Especially on the level of content that you're talking about.

But when you see a Paladin slow cast healing themselves back up, there's a bit of a subtext communicated that you're not healing enough. Likewise, when you see other players pulling for you as a tank, there's kind of a subtext that you're not pulling quickly enough. It's passive aggressive, and that's absolutely what people are reacting to. Anyone who claims to be only motivated on benevolent higher principles in this regard either lacks an understanding of fundamental human behaviour (including their own), or is just claiming otherwise to save face.

Actually that's fair. I think I agree with you that it will often be interpreted as passive agressive.

It's still misguided imo and lacks virtue (if that's the right word for it, idk). Should we really indulge in the first instinctively human reaction, when it goes against the purpose of the group? Imo no, but I get that you'll be less careful repressing that when playing a game with little real life stakes.

The fact that this community also encourages snowflake treatment and imo lacks humility doesn't help. I think this conversation would barely be up for debate if you'd swap this community with another game (WoW for example).

[Lyth]

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Yeah, that doesn't happen for tanks anymore, and it actually gets worse in raid content with auto-positioning bosses and snore-fest mitigation. I don't really care what happens in dungeons, because the tank always has the option of racing ahead and pulling everything, and then they still get execute the basic elements of positioning, control, and movement. But it's still amusing that some people lack the insight about why tanks get upset when those gameplay elements get taken away, either by game design (raid content) or by other players because tanks aren't actually necessary (dungeon content).

I'm also a believer in giving every post the rhetorical response it deserves. Meet logic with logic, ethics with ethics, and emotion with emotion. A disingenuous response does not warrant a serious reply.