Theory on Zodairk and Hydylian

[Savagelf]

when come to legacy character one could be seen as you be saved by Hydaelyn. you did appear in column of light mind and yes I do have legacy character. if you go back to begin of 2.0 you notice you appeal on Ezorath in column of light this could also Hydialyn doing. see you have think Hydaelyn has desire to defeat Zodairk or hiden motive human nature think Her desire is manluptive. it maybe Zodairk goal to defeat hydialyn and she self defensive life. you have your view of hydialyn backward. Hydialyn right in control of Ezorath so how is she worst then Zodairk if she is in control. Zodairk is one imprison right now why do you think the ascian are tried to get her expel for Erozath and Zodairk replace her

in core of Ezorath is a sea of aether this where Hydialyn exsist current so she is in control right now. so think she was worst has throw out all what we current know about Zodairk and Hydaelyn since Hydaelyn won that Titanic fight between her and Zodairk. Zodairk is right now imprison in the other moon.

[AnimaAnimus]

you appeal on Ezorath in column of light this could also Hydialyn doing

Do you mean Eorzea? I have no idea who this Ezorath is... The column of light you appear from going from 1.x to 2.0 is also a spell Lou cast by calling upon Thaliak, the keeper of time. If you look at the End of an Era, Thaliak's symbol even appears when his finishes his casting.

Anyway, going off of what some others were saying that the Echo is not a gift from Hydaelyn, but its what allowed us to hear her call. Could it be that she has just been hijacking everyone with this power throughout the ages and it actually comes from a source that will help us defeat her after we are able to be purged of her tempering. Maybe it is actually a gift from the being that originally tried to bring down the ascians? Maybe its just a natural gift? Maybe the gift of the echo is a byproduct of the sundering that she is using to her advantage? Maybe even its a gift of the Twelve. There has been very little said about them since 2.x and it feels suspicious. There are a lot of possibilities.

[Avidria]

The feel I got from the last MSQ was that the echo was a remnant - a literal echo - of the power we had as Ancients. Something dormant inside of us that could be triggered by a memory ingrained so deep in us that it wasn't completely gone even after all this time - that memory being the meteors falling from the sky and destroying the Ancient civilization.

Ofc again idk how much stock to put in literally anything Elidibus says at this point, but it definitely felt like he was implying Hydaelyn has gone so far as deliberately triggering those memories to enable people to hear her via the echo so she could enlist their help - the further implication being that she would be enlisting that help via tempering anyone able to hear her.

You could argue her motive justifies this, being the prevention of the Ascians' plans succeeding, but it still paints a less friendly picture of Hydaelyn's "gift" than anything we've seen before.

[AnimaAnimus]

The feel I got from the last MSQ was that the echo was a remnant - a literal echo - of the power we had as Ancients. Something dormant inside of us that could be triggered by a memory ingrained so deep in us that it wasn't completely gone even after all this time - that memory being the meteors falling from the sky and destroying the Ancient civilization. .

This could very well be and it could be the power of the Ascians, which made Hydaelyn and Zodiark, is the key to undoing them. So by tempering everyone with the echo and but limits on it (remember everyone's is different), she is securing her existence. Which could also be the reason she sundered the world to begin with.

I really do not believe Hydaelyn is out for anyone but Hydaelyn. I mean a creature who went as far as breaking the world into 13 replicas of itself and all the people on it, effectively commiting genocide, does not go to well with benevolence.

[Dyvid]

Spoiler Alert: Zenos is going to possess Zodiark in much the same fashion as he did Shinryu. Zeromus?

[Melichoir]

The feel I got from the last MSQ was that the echo was a remnant - a literal echo - of the power we had as Ancients. Something dormant inside of us that could be triggered by a memory ingrained so deep in us that it wasn't completely gone even after all this time - that memory being the meteors falling from the sky and destroying the Ancient civilization.

Ofc again idk how much stock to put in literally anything Elidibus says at this point, but it definitely felt like he was implying Hydaelyn has gone so far as deliberately triggering those memories to enable people to hear her via the echo so she could enlist their help - the further implication being that she would be enlisting that help via tempering anyone able to hear her.

You could argue her motive justifies this, being the prevention of the Ascians' plans succeeding, but it still paints a less friendly picture of Hydaelyn's "gift" than anything we've seen before.

Ok so gonna hide stuff cause teh spoilers but....

This is the case because I think Elidibus straight up says the Echo predates the ability to even hear Hydaelin. Meaning, You cant even interact/hear Hydaelin unless you have the echo, and that it is latent to all things and only activated by events that reawaken the amarotian fragment in you. Keep in mind it's this same echo that prevents tempering from primals, so if Hydaelin was creating these events to awaken the Echo, it would be counter productive if her goal was tempering.

Also, the tempered tend to be fanatical and seek to convert more people to being tempered, something those with the echo arent really described as being. Tempering itself seems to be a byproduct of more 'feral' primals. This would be like Ifrit, Garuda, titan, etc. Primals who are more like manifestations of, well, primal nature in living things. This may be because primals like ifrit do not have a 'core', and require the conviction of outside believers to remain solid. More believers, stronger the primal is too. This would explain how more advanced Primals, such as Shiva, Thordan, Alexander, Shinryu (Kinda, but Zenos joins the Primal and gains control of it likely as its new core), and Tsukuyomi dont seem to need tempering. Primals that have a 'core' seem not to only have higher thinking, but they dont need the worship of tempered to survive. The strength and conviction of the core itself is usually enough to keep the Primal stable, as long as they get fed the necessary Aether to manifest. This fact seems backed up particularly with Tsukuyomi, where when Yotsuyu's conviction falters, the Primal destabalizes and disolves. It's only when she gives back into the the "Screw it all" mindset that she stabilizes again and even becomes more powerful.

Also, given what we learned after beating Amnanesis Anider, this seems to be the case as both cores of Zodiark and Hydaelin are composted of Amarotians - God like beings in of themselves, which created pretty much the ultimate manifestations a primal can take. Implications of E8 seem to suggest the stronger the core, teh stronger the manifestation. Given the MSQ story and what surrounds Ryne, its not to much of a stretch to assume she is more powerful than Ysale, and subsequently, her manifestation of Shiva is also more powerful. But it also demonstrates that you can lose control pretty easily if youre not mentally strong enough to wield that power. Ysale was pretty solid in that department, where Ryne was either overpowered by her own summon or she herself just didnt have the conviction or maturity required to stay in control.

Which actually brings us to a very possible reason why both Hydaelins group and Zodiarks group wanted that 14th member - They may have been extremely gifted/powerful and wouldve made the perfect core. Instead they used the original Elidibus and Venat as the cores (and did so without enough members as it were). Its possible that while these two are powerful in their own right, maybe they didnt have the mental fortitude to keep the primals in check and shenanigans ensued.

Might be down the line, we ourselves will indeed become a new primal, and act as the core for that primal that forces balance between Zodiark and Hydaelin. We have the strength of will and power to do so, so its not to far out there.

[Avidria]

I'm on mobile and even with desktop mode cropping and quoting is a nightmare BUT
in response to you Melichoir

my understanding was that we've just assumed the echo protects us from being tempered, but iirc it was said at some point that you can't be tempered by a primal if you already are tempered by a different one - I may be wrong on that but I remember this coming up in some discussions back closer to ShB launch.

I also thought the Ascians admitted to being tempered? I may need to do some digging, but I vaguely remember something about the primals we have today being inferior in part because their tempering just brute force blanks out the victims instead of solely binding them to their will. That could just be a fan theory but I'm definitely gonna see if I can look into this more later and see where these thoughts came from...

Tldr I thought the Ascians were tempered and it was implied we were too lol I've just gotta go back and re-read some things looks like

[Melichoir]

I'm on mobile and even with desktop mode cropping and quoting is a nightmare BUT
in response to you Melichoir

my understanding was that we've just assumed the echo protects us from being tempered, but iirc it was said at some point that you can't be tempered by a primal if you already are tempered by a different one - I may be wrong on that but I remember this coming up in some discussions back closer to ShB launch.

I also thought the Ascians admitted to being tempered? I may need to do some digging, but I vaguely remember something about the primals we have today being inferior in part because their tempering just brute force blanks out the victims instead of solely binding them to their will. That could just be a fan theory but I'm definitely gonna see if I can look into this more later and see where these thoughts came from...

Tldr I thought the Ascians were tempered and it was implied we were too lol I've just gotta go back and re-read some things looks like

Yeah, you cant be tempered if youre already tempered, ass youve been pointed out. But it was specified that the echo itself prevents us from being tempered, and with the new knowledge that

the echo is a power directly from the Amorotians and not Hydaelin, and subsequently predates hydaelin, we cant be tempered by hydaelin.

Also yeah

the ascians are tempered by Zodiark, but that was done only to the 13 that summoned him from what I understood. So it might be a situation that if youre involved directly with the summoning, you get tempered. but youre already a firm believer in the process so not much would change. We, however, didnt summon Hydaelin. It's not a fan theory about brute forcing people into tempered, but again, this seems to happen with primals who dont have a core. We really dont see primals who have a core require the tempered to remain stable, or even create tempered. You could argue with Ysale and Thordan they had strong followers, but that wouldnt explain Tsukuyomi. Could very well be that Primals with cores who also have followers that help the summon volentarily temper themselves, and thus remain some freewill. It would make sense as that would allow Emet and the other ascians to be able to act freely and think, unlike other tempered who are just mindless worshippers.

[Savagelf]

I think you prespect if wrong Melichoir you assumed you being manluptived by hydaelyn and that everything ascian told you was correct. see what they told you must take with gain of a lot salts because they lost second they desire are destructions. Hydailyn. third the concept of Amorotians isn't to be found anywere except by your post mean you made it up. Hydaelyn gave us the echo not Amorotians stop tried make stuff up. Hydaelyn isn't a threat the ascian and Zodairk are where in lore does Amorotians come or are you make that up too. third it was ascian who force some to gain echo not Hydaelyn seem to me Melichoir everything your say sound more like some regressive ideal to ffxiv and not concept the devs hold when we have discuss on lore of ffxiv I except people point out lore not use ideal they come up or ideal procept they themselves put in they head because they want it to work for they views. point when one is discuss lore you must base on lore of ffxiv not one own desire view and ideal that one come up with

my theory isn't base on my ideal but base what mainline quest is point to and what all the mainline quest are point to not what someone made up or someone want think will happen.

the ideal of Hydialyn be evil has been base on one ascian tried twist the truth, second ffxiv story telling is base on all ffxiv mainline quests not shadowbringer alone. or stormbringer alone I find stupid people want create this ideal base on they own views

make Hydialyn good would be a first a good thing and second a new way for ff series to go about story telling and something I hope they doing. in my play ff game away SE has made god like being evil they have never broke that pattern if they can break in ffxiv then it show SE can doing new thing and tried new and expand they story telling compase

the whole evil god thing is get a bit old too SE

[Melichoir]

I think you prespect if wrong Melichoir you assumed you being manluptived by hydaelyn and that everything ascian told you was correct. see what they told you must take with gain of a lot salts because they lost second they desire are destructions.

Not everything the Ascians have told us is a lie, and why should they always resort to lies. Sometimes the best way to manipulate an enemy is to tell them the truth of things. Furthermore, they dont 'desire destruction'. Thats not their end goal. Their end goal is to 'resurrect' Zodiark so they can get their homeland and people back. Theyre not sitting there thinking "Gee, lets destroy stuff cause its fun." The 3 main ones (Lahabrea, Elidibus, and Emet) all have different attitudes and may go about it differently but their end goal is the restoration of their people.

Hydailyn. third the concept of Amorotians isn't to be found anywere except by your post mean you made it up. Hydaelyn gave us the echo not Amorotians stop tried make stuff up.

Um have you not been reading the MSQ?

Were all 'sundered' versions of original amorotians. The echo is implied to be a fragment of the power amarotians had, and is not gifted by Hydaelin but inherent to all of us because of us being sundered versions of those amarotians. The star shower or events that mimic it awaken that power. IIRC Elidibus does explain that you cant hear haidelyin without the echo, contrary to the original belief you hear Hydaelin and then she gives you the echo. You dont believe me, fine, Ill quote the wiki:

...Elidibus later makes his presence known at the Crystarium, casting an illusion of a starshower to awaken the Echo within those present

This was revealed in the most recent MSQ. How can hydaelin be gifting us with the echo if it requires an external event to awaken that power? In this case, Elidibus awakens the echo in the crowd by casting an illusion. Wouldnt it be counter productive to Elidibus to even create more WoLs with the power bestowed by Hydaelin if thats where it came from? All these people would be potential threats to him. Yet hes trying to make more people with the Echo.

If I had to take a guess, he wants them to all go out in the world, do what the WoD did inadvertently 100 years prior, and jump start the flood again.

Hydaelyn isn't a threat the ascian and Zodairk are where in lore does Amorotians come or are you make that up too. third it was ascian who force some to gain echo not Hydaelyn seem to me Melichoir everything your say sound more like some regressive ideal to ffxiv and not concept the devs hold when we have discuss on lore of ffxiv I except people point out lore not use ideal they come up or ideal procept they themselves put in they head because they want it to work for they views. point when one is discuss lore you must base on lore of ffxiv not one own desire view and ideal that one come up with

my theory isn't base on my ideal but base what mainline quest is point to and what all the mainline quest are point to not what someone made up or someone want think will happen.

Im not sure if she is,

but given that she is not only a primal like zodiark, but her actions destroyed an entire world, and some of the stuff shes been up to doesnt quite add up. Not to mention her core is made up of another amarotian who, ironically, thought the solution to their problems was to summon MORE primals means that there is possibility that Hydaelin isnt perfectly good, and that Zodiark may not be completely evil. A theme that was presented was that light and darkness dont mean good/evil respectively, but are just different aspects. The first was a world almost obliterated by light. Doesnt sound like a 'good' thing to me.

Beyond that, gonna just ignore the rest. Not sure why youre going after me on a personal level. It's not relevant to anything Im saying. If Im wrong about some aspect of the lore, tell me the lore that counters my point and where its at so I can read up on it. Im not an expert on the lore, just passing my thoughts on based on what Ive understood.