Some views on DPS balance that everyone cares about

[Nemekh]

Sorry, but the way you argue about these things leads me to believe that you have very limited experience in savage or ultimate prog and jobs optimization in this game, especially when it comes to healing...the whole EF discussion is just silly.

Looking historical records up you're not incorrect.

[Renkei]

Looking historical records up you're not incorrect.

Looking at Historical Records you didn't even start Raiding until Creator Tier in Heavenward, There is no Historical records judging people off Parses and logs is exactly the toxic kind of nonsense that this community doesn't need, You can't prove someone is a good player by just looking at the logs considering the current system doesn't have ARR End-game, Just because someone has parse logs in a game doesn't mean that suddenly makes them higher up in some kinda Hierarchy that doesn't exist you people are clearly just power hungry and need to grow up.

[Vendalwind]

Looking at Historical Records you didn't even start Raiding until Creator Tier in Heavenward, There is no Historical records judging people off Parses and logs is exactly the toxic kind of nonsense that this community doesn't need, You can't prove someone is a good player by just looking at the logs considering the current system doesn't have ARR End-game, Just because someone has parse logs in a game doesn't mean that suddenly makes them higher up in some kinda Hierarchy that doesn't exist you people are clearly just power hungry and need to grow up.

It does however mean they are more likely to be skilled, and more measurably skilled than someone untested. You question the validity of all documents of prestige then. It's an affirming the negative logic flaw. Thats like saying a college degree is worthless because other people succeed in a given field/career path without a degree. Just because other people can succeed doesn't mean the college degree, the logs and measurements, are worthless. And when recruiting employees even a similar skilled individual will often be looked over because the one with the college degree is certifiably safe.

Now I'm not saying you have to have logs to be a good player. obviously not. But it is ABSOLUTELY true that players with logs are more likely to be good players than those without. AND without any logs no claim made has any proof of veracity.

[Renkei]

It does however mean they are more likely to be skilled, and more measurably skilled than someone untested. You question the validity of all documents of prestige then. It's an affirming the negative logic flaw. Thats like saying a college degree is worthless because other people succeed in a given field/career path without a degree. Just because other people can succeed doesn't mean the college degree, the logs and measurements, are worthless. And when recruiting employees even a similar skilled individual will often be looked over because the one with the college degree is certifiably safe.

Now I'm not saying you have to have logs to be a good player. obviously not. But it is ABSOLUTELY true that players with logs are more likely to be good players than those without. AND without any logs no claim made has any proof of veracity.

I don't know i am kind of deeply troubled that you would even start comparing Parse logs in a game to Degrees of Social Economic position.

[Rilifane]

I don't know i am kind of deeply troubled that you would even start comparing Parse logs in a game to Degrees of Social Economic position.

He does have a point, though.
It was just one example to emphasize that people with obvious experience tend to be more credible than people who only know the theory. Yes, some people have a good understanding of concepts without having them used in praxis but when talking about raids, balance und unique benefits and challenges of different jobs, the opinion of someone who has dealth with all this is (and even performed well) is usually prefered over someone who hasn't. That's not toxic nonsense. Practice in recognizing and overcoming these challenges simply adds another level of understanding.
While it does not mean that everybody who ever had a log for any type of endgame content is suddenly someone you absolutely need to listen to it at least raises the chance that they know what they're talking about. Good performance in recent fights is preferable of course because things fundamentally change each expansion.

And the notion that higher APM jobs should have higher DPS by nature is incredibly narrow-minded.
As Lastelli pointed out, a spammy one button job with a 1sec GCD would have high APM with basically zero difficulty.
Difficulty isn't determined by the amount of actions per minute and the gap between the highest and lowest APM job may look huge on paper but in practice, 31,5 vs 47,7 is not that much. Difficulty is mainly determined by timers, restrictions and amount of oGCDs vs weaving windows and how readily they are available.
Also, if you take a look at the various gear sets recommended you'll note that a lower GCD set (=more APM) often lowers the skill ceiling and are more comfortable as it gets easier to squeeze in a set number of GCDs into buff windows while higher GCD sets make it more difficult to handle and are recommended for a bit more experienced players.

[Renkei]

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I Don't see why you want to defend that their obvious Motte and Bailey Position, I've Argued that It wasn't that Simple Multiple-times though out this entire Thread, It's Narrow-minded to consider my Sarcastic point i made as factual when my follow up was that it wasn't that simple and is another clear display of ad populum. Besides if you look at the historical data it absolutely disproves his point and shows his appeal to ad populum.

He doesn't have a point, Comparing Social-Positioning like this game is some kind of Perfect Meritocracy is a complete lie.

Going around and Policing parse runs to push social hierarchies on other users in a community is Tyranny by Definition. This is the exact reason that the Developers grey zoning this, if your community keeps up this behavior and enforces these Fastidious Tyrannical Social hierarchies It'll lead to hard-banning of those kinds of tools all together.


First of all let me point out an Obvious fact here.


Vendalwind : "It does however mean they are more likely to be skilled, and more measurably skilled than someone untested. You question the validity of all documents of prestige then."


This is a Clear and Obvious Weak Position full of Fallicies, It employs clear false Equivalence, and A Fallacy of Diversion.
He goes against the Validity of all Logic with such Mental Gymnastics to justify his means.
Not to Mention that it's a Naive position to take as people can pay others to complete entire degrees for them online, Falsifying academic credentials does in fact happen.

They are JUST as likely to be as skilled as the person without the degree, Put that confirmation bias aside, A Degree is similar to a Certificate of Accomplishment by no means is it a document of Prestige, It's a Document of Accomplishment, That's the difference. Example A Diploma Proves that you have passed the examine required to complete the task, while a Degree indicates you completed studies under the subject you have selected.

I'd much rather have a person with a Diploma complete the task then someone with a degree knowing that the person with the Diploma has completed before and not knowing if the person with the Degree competed it before, Because Degrees only are proofs of study and theoretical knowledge.


Now let me have some other logical input on that position.


If someone has a college degree it doesn't make them worth more or less, it purely depends on their passion for the position in their personal experience as an employer it would be more beneficial to you to hire someone with more personal experience then theoretical experience if you had a smaller business the reasoning behind this is because a College Degree ensures that a Student has Theoretic potential to complete the task, But this in no means will replace somebody that has Practical hands on experience, College by no way defines whether or not somebody is smart or not, its more of a value of someones social economic position then it is a gauge of intelligence, the reason being is there are people who need to be educated and people who educate themselves the current structures insure that the balance of social economic positioning exists with disregards to functional competence in a task this is why trade schools exists and why people have the choice to specialize outside of institutional learning. Growth and learning should be a life Long experience not something that you only do in school to obtain a Degree having a degree doesn't make you better then anyone else around you either, I've met many of people in my life who had Bachelors degrees but cannot excel in the field they graduated in. The truth is In Contrast a large corporation where you have Corporate Insurance in the form of such as employee fidelity That's where things start to differ as the Corporation cannot take on the employee without a degree as it cannot due to its Corporate Fidelity policies. I Understand the reasoning behind it and can explain, but i am not interested in Corporatism or Nepotism.

I don't hang Parses over peoples head because this is a game we should all be playing to have fun, I think the act of doing so is a dis-service to this community as a whole. If you want to play for numbers that is cool though, but by no means does that make you anymore special or more important then any other member of this community.

[Lastelli]

I Don't see why you want to defend that clear obvious Motte and Bailey Position, I've Argued that It wasn't that Simple Multiple-times though out this entire Thread, It's Narrow-minded to consider my Sarcastic point i made as factual when my follow up was that it wasn't that simple and is another clear display of ad populum.

He doesn't have a point, Comparing Social-Positioning like this game is some kind of Perfect Meritocracy is a complete lie.

Going around and Policing parse runs to push social hierarchies on other users in a community is Tyranny by Definition. This is the exact reason that the Developers grey zoning this, if your community keeps up this behavior and enforces these Fastidious Tyrannical Social hierarchies It'll lead to hard-banning of those kinds of tools all together.

Dude, stop embarassing yourself.
The problem here is not your historical performance, it's that what you're saying is factually wrong and shows that you simply lack experience. I and many others have already explained why. We gave you detailed explanations as to why EF is close to useless and shouldn't be taken into account when balancing or why APM means nothing. Playing the victim card is a little embarassing to see. And yes, sorry to tell you but not all opinions hold the same weight in this world, despite what some sjw say. Competence and experience always matter, both for serious matters like science and for less serious things like a game's balance theorycrafting.

[Nemekh]

Looking at Historical Records you didn't even start Raiding until Creator Tier in Heavenward, There is no Historical records judging people off Parses and logs is exactly the toxic kind of nonsense that this community doesn't need, You can't prove someone is a good player by just looking at the logs considering the current system doesn't have ARR End-game, Just because someone has parse logs in a game doesn't mean that suddenly makes them higher up in some kinda Hierarchy that doesn't exist you people are clearly just power hungry and need to grow up.

I think you'll find, Renkei, that with the work I'm involved with especially in co-founding XivAnalysis, that I would never just look at things at a surface level, nor would I ever play the card of implying that having higher or lower percentiles makes someone better or worse than others. In fact, I have spent every day for over 3 years, in some regards at my own financial cost, helping people regardless of their past experience to improve their play. If you think that's all to gorge on power then I'm not sure what to tell you. It just comes across as having an irrational bias against anyone affiliated with The Balance, just as you had shown earlier in response to one of Jack's posts.

What I observed with your historic information was the fact that you do lack the current experience at the higher end be it this expansion and some time prior. You may eventually clear savage, you may take it at a slower pace and that's fine. But don't think that is equivalent to being intimate with all the savages early on and the ultimates as the patches roll on by. Especially when it comes to the impacts of certain facets in said content requiring direct experience to be familiar with. Reading log data alone is not the same as practical experience.

Also, nice try attempting to riposte with the Heavensward reference but I'm afraid it's a swing and a miss. I have no shame in admitting I was playing XIV much more casually since ARR. Took a significant event to make me want to delve deeper into the game. Things happen for a reason both good and bad. But that's all the past. Try better with more recent times. The game isn't the same as it was since ARR.