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  1. #1
    Player
    Kalise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
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    1,784
    Character
    Kalise Relanah
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Akiudo View Post
    exactly because "only enough so they survive" is healer 101 it would mean you would have to top everyone off in the proposed scenario, you want to maximize the value of your global cooldowns
    That depends entirely on your kit and what you have to spend to top someone off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akiudo View Post
    if someone is at 40% life
    Why would someone be at 40% life? When random damage does 50% damage, avoidable damage does 100% damage and Raidbusters do (Currently) 90% damage. Or if you're referring to normal, then avoidable damage does 40% life and Raidbusters do 50% life.

    When would someone be at 40% life?

    You might have to heal someone for 41% life, if they got hit by a random attack and the next mechanic is a Raidbuster for 90% life.

    Now, in the theoretical scenario where someone was at 40% life for whatever reason, maybe as a healer you might decide you can use an oGCD on them to heal them up while you're doing mechanics/using a GCD on the Tank/nuking the boss during a raid buff window.

    With less potent oGCD's this might not fully heal the person, but they would still be above the 50% threshold that would let them die to this random 50% life attack.

    Would you then have to heal them again before the next raidbuster? Maybe. It depends on how much life they have, how much self sustain they have, how many incidental AoE heals they have received, how much healing they'll get from the application of a Succor/Aspected Benefic shield (Which will be applied before the damage thereby also applying the heal before the damage is done)

    Not to mention, how much damage raidbusters do with Tanks having more tools to mitigate them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akiudo View Post
    you wouldn't just "get them above 50%" because that would mean you would have to heal them a second time before the next group wide aoe or stack mechanic or whatever
    That entirely depends on when the next mechanic is coming and what the mechanic is.

    If another target is going to be getting hit by damage (Such as a Tank receiving a Tankbuster) you can simply heal both targets with an AoE heal.

    If there's time before the next AoE, you can toss a HoT on them and so long as they're above 50% life, they're going to be safe from this random 50% life damage and if not, well they should be relatively healthy by the time the AoE occurs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akiudo View Post
    would mean i would have to use ogcds as panic buttons
    Only if you don't bother casting a GCD heal and literally need to panic and push something to bring someone's life up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Akiudo View Post
    in turn meaning i would again not have them ready where i want them (say a mechanic where randomly 2 people get targeted for attacks and need to be healed through them, or the next tankbuster, or as a general buffer for the tank/someone that messed up something else shortly before the next aoe.
    Well... There's a reason why I mentioned shifting healing throughput to GCD's and not keeping everything on oGCD's. Since, Healers will now have to actually use GCD heals to heal things.

    It's a shocking practice I know, but there's plenty of time to do so. Given that XIV literally cannot pump out damage rapidly because AoE's take time to travel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akiudo View Post
    Also, in even more general terms, the moment it can be screwed up even if this is do to complete failure on the players part it IS adding difficulty
    It's the same as if in the current easy mode Normal raids, both healers decide to never cast a single heal, oGCD or otherwise, and focus entirely on nuking the boss.

    Is this creating difficulty because people can be idiots and not be able to press a heal button and thus cause wipes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Akiudo View Post
    Also what about mechanics that go wrong but do to sheer luck or whatever only 2 dps+1 heal die, now this other heal has to get up 1 heal+2 dps, this shouldn't happen, but it can and does happen.
    If this is Savage/Ultimate, you've already wiped because you're not going to beat the enrage timer.

    If this is normal, this is what Healer LB3 is saved for, to Raise and Fully Heal everyone and give full MP.


    Quote Originally Posted by Akiudo View Post
    heck, all of this is even ignoring that even "random" can't be too random unless you want fights to vary between "easiest run ever" and "holy shit, how many more random bolts of death will he send?"
    Not really. Even in my OP I mentioned having limitations to the frequency of random damage spikes.

    Which can be easily sorted via cooldowns on the random damage after which point it CAN be cast, but doesn't necessarily have to be cast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akiudo View Post
    the scripted nature of the fights simply does not leave that much room to simply fill it with randomness, adding randomness means taking out scripted aspects
    Not really.

    There's plenty of time between "Buster" attacks where all that is happening is DPSing the boss and running out of crap on the floor.

    That can be filled with "Random" damage because there isn't any other damage happening other than fluff damage from boss AA's vs the tank and potentially failed mechanics which in most difficulties result in insta-death anyway.

    You don't have to take out scripted events either. Since again, there's plenty of room between currently prominent scripted unavoidable damage and again, in most difficulties, avoidable damage doesn't care if you're at 100% health or not it'll just one-shot you.
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  2. #2
    Player
    Akiudo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    514
    Character
    Narumi Akiudo
    World
    Alpha
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalise View Post
    That depends entirely on your kit and what you have to spend to top someone off.
    that you "want to maximize the value of your global cooldowns" is not debetable, what this means exactly may differ, but it will in the end come down to "heal enough that you don't have to heal a second time"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalise View Post
    Why would someone be at 40% life? When random damage does 50% damage, avoidable damage does 100% damage and Raidbusters do (Currently) 90% damage. Or if you're referring to normal, then avoidable damage does 40% life and Raidbusters do 50% life.
    When would someone be at 40% life?
    because believe it or not, some mechanics you can screw up AND survive, there are also times an unavoidable mechanic drops you down to wherever, but for one reason or another healing someone else (say the tank) is preferable in that situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalise View Post
    You might have to heal someone for 41% life, if they got hit by a random attack and the next mechanic is a Raidbuster for 90% life.

    Now, in the theoretical scenario where someone was at 40% life for whatever reason, maybe as a healer you might decide you can use an oGCD on them to heal them up while you're doing mechanics/using a GCD on the Tank/nuking the boss during a raid buff window.
    or i might screw up because whatever, it happened therefore this person goes down and now the group actually has a dead dps on hand, oh look, the fight suddenly got more difficult

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalise View Post
    With less potent oGCD's this might not fully heal the person, but they would still be above the 50% threshold that would let them die to this random 50% life attack.

    Would you then have to heal them again before the next raidbuster? Maybe. It depends on how much life they have, how much self sustain they have, how many incidental AoE heals they have received, how much healing they'll get from the application of a Succor/Aspected Benefic shield (Which will be applied before the damage thereby also applying the heal before the damage is done)
    exactly, maybe, and maybe, just maybe i wanted to save my ogcd heal for the next phase where i have to heal the tank while moving, fact of the matter is i would potentially be out one or more ogcds i could have used otherwise and which i can't necessarely replace with hardcasts at other times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalise View Post
    Not to mention, how much damage raidbusters do with Tanks having more tools to mitigate them.
    unless they screw up? no, "than they simply have to not screw up" is not an argument cause the very base of this discussion was that adding things one can screw up without taking other things to screw up out adds difficulty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalise View Post
    That entirely depends on when the next mechanic is coming and what the mechanic is.

    If another target is going to be getting hit by damage (Such as a Tank receiving a Tankbuster) you can simply heal both targets with an AoE heal.
    great idea, the next time the boss decides to hit the tank for 80% of his life followed by another attack for 70% of his life i will simply use medica II and pray

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalise View Post
    If there's time before the next AoE, you can toss a HoT on them and so long as they're above 50% life, they're going to be safe from this random 50% life damage and if not, well they should be relatively healthy by the time the AoE occurs.

    Well... There's a reason why I mentioned shifting healing throughput to GCD's and not keeping everything on oGCD's. Since, Healers will now have to actually use GCD heals to heal things.
    great, so now i have to think even more how well my hot will do the job. or well, i can screw up and misjudge you know. your whole argument of getting healer classes to heal more demands healing at its core to get more difficult, that is fine, that is something you are totally free to argue for, especially as healing in itself is simply not difficult, which is why most heals are glorified dps, you are right on that. but you still argue to make something more difficult, which in turn would make fights as a whole more difficult unless you take out difficulty elsewhere. i really can't wrap my head around your inability to admit to that fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalise View Post
    It's a shocking practice I know, but there's plenty of time to do so. Given that XIV literally cannot pump out damage rapidly because AoE's take time to travel.
    but of course they are, maybe one has to define rapidly , but considering your global cooldown even with all the spellspeed in the world wouldn't go below 2 seconds of course they could send out an aoe pulse hitting the group for 70% every second and wish you well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalise View Post
    It's the same as if in the current easy mode Normal raids, both healers decide to never cast a single heal, oGCD or otherwise, and focus entirely on nuking the boss.

    Is this creating difficulty because people can be idiots and not be able to press a heal button and thus cause wipes?
    for one its fundamentally not the same as normal mode mechanics are designed so you survive screwing them up, which in savage is the exception and even than it will carry a heavy penalty like a damage down (which doesn't hold the same value in normal mode as there generally are no enrages, or way more lenient ones) , or well, costing your healer an ogcd or 2 to get you up before the next aoe, also as far as your core question goes, to put it bluntly, yes it is creating difficulty. i did not say it was artificial difficulty or whatever, but if you have 2 situations, one where only the tank needs heals and the rest of the group can be ignored and another one where you actually need to heal the group than the second one is undeniably more difficult


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalise View Post
    If this is Savage/Ultimate, you've already wiped because you're not going to beat the enrage timer.
    not true, at least not necessarely if you got good dps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalise View Post
    If this is normal, this is what Healer LB3 is saved for, to Raise and Fully Heal everyone and give full MP.
    please show me the datacenter where people in normal mode would even be coordinated enough to save heal lb3 if told beforehand to do so, please show it to me i really want to move there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalise View Post
    Not really. Even in my OP I mentioned having limitations to the frequency of random damage spikes.

    Which can be easily sorted via cooldowns on the random damage after which point it CAN be cast, but doesn't necessarily have to be cast.
    and if it can get casted every 15 seconds but may be casted never the difficulty every single pull would very wildly, if you make it so it gets cast anywhere in a range of 10-30 seconds but one cast will be done if all you do is make it so it cant happen 5 seconds before or after tankbuster/raidwides/mechanics that single out players and need them at full health (as the global cooldown in this game is pretty long as you know, and simply sacrificing ogcd's is a) not what you wanted and b) may fuck you over later) there actually isn't all that "plenty of time" left you seem to believe, in the end it would be the faintest of randomness, it would basically make it look random, but in the end still be "in the time from tankbuster 1-2 throw 3 global cooldown heals on a random player, timing on when to do may vary)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalise View Post
    Not really.
    There's plenty of time between "Buster" attacks where all that is happening is DPSing the boss and running out of crap on the floor.
    That can be filled with "Random" damage because there isn't any other damage happening other than fluff damage from boss AA's vs the tank and potentially failed mechanics which in most difficulties result in insta-death anyway.
    if there is but a 5% chance of surviving the failure to move out of the aoe, which often is the case with a bit more gear or a defensive cooldown the potential that such a person took the circle of death but now needs imediate healing otherwise they may die do to random lightning bolts or whatever you just made the encounter more difficult than it would have been without that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalise View Post
    You don't have to take out scripted events either. Since again, there's plenty of room between currently prominent scripted unavoidable damage and again, in most difficulties, avoidable damage doesn't care if you're at 100% health or not it'll just one-shot you.
    just to prove you wrong, e5s and 6s only, if you got a spare orb but get hit by the lightning circle that comes up around another player, dunno the name but the stuff that first hits one half of the players than the others, you would survive this, you would also have taken avoidable damage, e6 with a bit of luck you can take one of garudas wind orbs, maybe the tank or heal knew you are too stupid and gave you a shield beforehand or whatever, you can also potentially survive a single eruption, still thats avoidable damage, so either no "random" damage around either of these mechanics or you risk people dying that wouldn't have died otherwise, again you just made the fight harder

    i never said you had to take them out completly, but again you added difficulty where there was none before, things that people can screw up, situations that can now go haywire that couldn't before, if you keep everything else the same the fight just got harder and nothing else, and if you give players tools to mitigate this added difficulty that still assumes they will use these tools correctly, which isn't necessarely true.
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    Last edited by Akiudo; 03-25-2020 at 08:35 AM.