Some views on DPS balance that everyone cares about

[Myon88]

My, you're truly grasping at straws if you're going to take issue with 'condescension', surely you don't think your behavior has garnered any goodwill here. I'm simply repaying you in kind, your play history is hardly a secret, that you're a blm main is a matter of fact.

Rather unwise of you to take issue with my bringing up e8s too, my observations on dots and that add phase are a simple statement of fact. It really doesn't get more straightforward than that, and the person I was talking too concurred. You seem to have a troubled relationship with facts, but don't me ruin your fun.

I wont deny making quips

But you don't deny this much eh? And so little by little, we make progress.

[Zerathor]

My, you're truly grasping at straws if you're going to take issue with 'condescension', surely you don't think your behavior has garnered any goodwill here. I'm simply repaying you in kind, your play history is hardly a secret, that you're a blm main is a matter of fact.

Rather unwise of you to take issue with my bringing up e8s too, my observations on dots and that add phase are a simple statement of fact. It really doesn't get more straightforward than that, and the person I was talking too concurred. You seem to have a troubled relationship with facts, but don't me ruin your fun.



But you don't deny this much eh? And so little by little, we make progress.

See, you're really not proving anything wrong here lol. Progress on what exactly? I'm an *** to people that deserve it, that's no secret. Condescending smn mains that start off threads insulting people deserve it.

You think your behavior has garnered any goodwill here?

Let me know when you want to make progress and start looking at arguments regarding the topic at hand. I'd love to keep going back and forth because it genuinely is entertaining for me, but it's rude to hijack this thread.


Let's try to recap back to actual discussion for a moment, correct me here for anything here you see wrong:

-I say smn is over tuned slightly due to having its raise, based on it doing on par damage to blm in the current tier of fight design, and likely this will average in future fight design.

-You say its because teams aren't geared up fully yet and things might change by a large degree

-I say the primary 2 jobs we we're comparing are likely getting their gear at a close pace being that it seems normal to gear funnel your static's hardest hitters, so I don't see the metric changing by a huge value. Unless you can figure out some giga brain strat that lets a blm never move in each fight. Which, honestly may be possible, but if it would involve harming the party's uptime strats, it wouldn't be a speedrun strat, it'd just a blm pad strat.

Lets try to move from here.


I think a key point of confusion may be having a different definition for 'balance' as well. Define what you think is balance. I believe balance should be focused around what is possible averaged across actual end game fights, and not target dummy scenarios of the highest possible cap it can reach in a vacuum. Because outside maybe one fight a tier, that's going to be an outlier.

[Myon88]

Exactly, the difference is I don't expect to find any civility here in the first place, I know better than to expect that. Which is why you don't see me complaining about tone. But you know that much, act like a twat, get treated like one yes? I see we have a mutual understanding here.

From the very beginning of this thread I have done nothing but address the topic directly. The only hijacking taking place is people coming along to attempt to disprove me, and me having to defend myself. If you want to move forward, maybe address why you think my observation on dots in e8s is flawed, which you have skipped over again. Come now, you just accused me of 'throwing out' peoples' arguments, and here I am showing you it was for good reason. Or don't. I know how dots work, so do you, we don't need another 2 pages of you dancing around trying to avoid agreeing with me.

But yes, our positions are fundamentally incompatible because I think the game should be balanced around perfect play. Be it a fight where you have to work very hard to achieve full uptime, or jobs like blm which on a mechanical level are more punishing than other jobs. It should be the responsibility of the player to work toward that goal, whether they succeed or no.

If you think otherwise, and want to lobby for summoner nerfs under that banner, then by all means. Just like that other person a few pages back who argued blm and rdm have strengths outside raids that should be factored into their power budget, if you argue in terms of a paradigm shift in design rather than a nerf in a vacuum, and I can hardly hold someone's opinion on a subjective matter against them.

[Zerathor]

Exactly, the difference is I don't expect to find any civility here in the first place, I know better than to expect that. Which is why you don't see me complaining about tone. But you know that much, act like a twat, get treated like one yes? I see we have a mutual understanding here.

From the very beginning of this thread I have done nothing but address the topic directly. The only hijacking taking place is people coming along to attempt to disprove me, and me having to defend myself. If you want to move forward, maybe address why you think my observation on dots in e8s is flawed, which you have skipped over again. Come now, you just accused me of 'throwing out' peoples' arguments, and here I am showing you it was for good reason. Or don't. I know how dots work, so do you, we don't need another 2 pages of you dancing around trying to avoid agreeing with me.

But yes, our positions are fundamentally incompatible because I think the game should be balanced around perfect play. Be it a fight where you have to work very hard to achieve full uptime, or jobs like blm which on a mechanical level are more punishing than other jobs. It should be the responsibility of the player to work toward that goal, whether they succeed or no.

If you think otherwise, and want to lobby for summoner nerfs under that banner, then by all means. Just like that other person a few pages back who argued blm and rdm have strengths outside raids that should be factored into their power budget, if you argue in terms of a paradigm shift in design rather than a nerf in a vacuum, and I can hardly hold someone's opinion on a subjective matter against them.

I didn't say it shouldn't be balanced around perfect play. That's what I want. I want it to be balanced around the maximum output, but regarding what is possible in the average scheme of fights. Certain jobs exceed if fights will involve very long extended phases with 2 targets or aoe, some jobs do better in fights with downtime more than others, some fights cater more to unrestrained mobility ect. It isn't the same as tuning dps around just hitting a target dummy, there are outside factors the player cannot change in fights. Things will be optimized for sure, but its nearly impossible to reach dummy dps tier.

I'm talking if you took 99th for each job across each fight and averaged those 4 fights together for each job, that is where I would want the numbers to balance out. And atm if you were to take those 2 values for smn and blm, they're pretty much even set right now, but one has a raise.

Of course blm are going to start finding small optimizations here and there, but the same case can be made for smn CD management. The blm has the possibility to scale harder, but as to how much more room there is to grow, I'm not sure. The blm's going out there now getting 99's are pretty good at finding how to not move after a couple weeks.

As for your point on e8s, its not flawed. I just assumed it would carry a lot more weight like it has in the past fights. Suppose I'm wrong. I'm honestly not too surprised with e8s though as much as e6s. e6s I expected it to carry a lot more weight.

[Myon88]

Well I for one think it's wonderfully symmetrical. Summoner has one fight (e7s) where its ability to multidot makes a significant difference, and one fight (e8s) where being a 'dot class' like that is a liability. If you make the argument that the e8s adds phase can be trivialized with gear, you can just as easily say the same for the adds in e7s, in which case, who cares about the ability to dot things? It becomes a matter of pure vanity on logs. Last tier, summoners were making out like bandits on the orbs in e1s, but conversely suffered when tasked to kill gaols on titan (exacerbated by ruins still having a dot dependency at the time, putting you in the lose/lose situation of either inefficiently dotting a short lived target, or suffering a massive damage penalty on ruins).

Though I also think some things don't have to be symmetrical because of big picture context, so scale is important. The melees are griping that this is a particularly melee-unfriendly tier for instance, and that's certainly true. But we've also just come off Eden's Gate which was conversely one of the most melee friendly tiers ever, especially e3s and e4s with gigantic no-positional hitboxes. Sometimes I think it's permissible for localized imbalance to occur like that, if it makes sense in the broader scale of things, what's important is to have perspective.

[Zerathor]

Well I for one think it's wonderfully symmetrical. Summoner has one fight (e7s) where its ability to multidot makes a significant difference, and one fight (e8s) where being a 'dot class' like that is a liability. If you make the argument that the e8s adds phase can be trivialized with gear, you can just as easily say the same for the adds in e7s, in which case, who cares about the ability to dot things? It becomes a matter of pure vanity on logs. Last tier, summoners were making out like bandits on the orbs in e1s, but conversely suffered when tasked to kill gaols on titan (exacerbated by ruins still having a dot dependency at the time, putting you in the lose/lose situation of either inefficiently dotting a short lived target, or suffering a massive damage penalty on ruins).

Though I also think some things don't have to be symmetrical because of big picture context, so scale is important. The melees are griping that this is a particularly melee-unfriendly tier for instance, and that's certainly true. But we've also just come off Eden's Gate which was conversely one of the most melee friendly tiers ever, especially e3s and e4s with gigantic no-positional hitboxes. Sometimes I think it's permissible for localized imbalance to occur like that, if it makes sense in the broader scale of things, what's important is to have perspective.

I agree, you can look at a broader scale of things and compare both tiers at the moment, regarding some new imbalances that have come out of it. The melee issue obviously makes sense. However even comparing both tiers, when we go back and look at how smn was doing post buffs, they were still on par with blm, and winning by a pretty good margin on fights like e1s. So it isn't really a fight design change that has caused smn's position vs blm. Strong multidot fights with long lasting targets just have the ability to boost them further ahead from their current tie.

The dots may seem like a kind of weakness on things that die before their duration can really take effect, but its not harming their position either. They just stay even, still.

I agree with wanting smn to be like.. 95% of a blm's damage, rdm's somewhere like 92% like you said earlier, but it doesn't seem like that is the case currently. If it was, I wouldn't really have any concern.

[Renkei]

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I'm no fashion have i resorted to ad hominems , Clearly your attempts at gas lighting are pretty feeble, I don't care for your perspective it means nothing to me because you proved it through your character.

No where did i say anything about it being Simple i offered a third person perspective and criticism without bias, which lead to you resorting to argumentum ad hominem.
Nothing was factual about what you said it was an opinion, everything you say in here is an opinion nothing you say is actual factual when your facts are objective, whether or not somebody chooses to accept what you say is factual is when its considered factual.
I am not bothered by any scrutiny, are you perhaps bothered by me not being easy prey to your psychological projections? I do not have any organized fellow here trying to defend me like you do, i think they call that nepotism.

I need to work how i perceive critique? Well you need to work on how to actually offer critique because you failed to offer constructive criticism, your position is always oppositional regardless of the content of somebody's post.

You talk about being Civil but clearly you were off the hook in earlier posts going after people, that's not exactly what is considered civil, now your on the back foot defending your position which proves further that you are in fact wrong, you can say what ever you want it doesn't change your behavior or your Character you not expecting to find civility and then getting it doesn't excuse your behavior you'll only be treated like you treat others.

The fact of the matter is you are only interested in discussing things with other people who play SMN.

Look, I've read the statics, and have even posted them on the forums here in multiple occasions and the differences are so very minor they might as well give dragoon a raise too.
At that rate if you wanna talk about being actually "Balance"d They might as well give all ranged job raises too.
I am not interested in actually giving everybody raises, the fact of the matter is you have a class who's Minimal dps is the highest among all classes and their max dps the highest. clearly there wasn't enough risk to reward built into their kit, i know plenty of summoners who performed top 100 before the changes, that's why i originally offered my opinion that right now summoners are doing damage output in damage compensating for their old combo and not their new one.
But right now it's clear that when a 30 percentile summoner can beat a 90 percentile bard that there's an issue with the current state of the game.

I've been advocating that they made ranged so simple that they cannot build any risk to reward into it and i am displeased with it simply because something is complicated doesn't make it unnecessary.
I don't find it pleasing when a BARD can be 100% and get out damaged by a 50% summoner. Honestly they should of done a better job instead of giving them a 1% band-aid fix.

[Myon88]

No where did i say anything about it being Simple i offered a third person perspective and criticism without bias, which lead to you resorting to argumentum ad hominem.

It was a hot mess for a lot of people because it was to difficult for it's reward, They should of buffed the damage and kept the rotation the same, or Lowered the damage when they simplified the rotation, there was no reason for a buff with simplification of their rotation

See you next time. And no that wasn't an 'ad hominem' attack on you, It was a simple statement of fact that the dragoon rotation is just as easy as the summoner one. If you don't think they deserve their damage for that reason, neither do any of the melee jobs.

[Kabooa]

See you next time. And no that wasn't an 'ad hominem' attack on you, It was a simple statement of fact that the dragoon rotation is just as easy as the summoner one. If you don't think they deserve their damage for that reason, neither do any of the melee jobs.

I mean, does anybody?

You get relatively good results for relatively little effort. Adhere to some basics, keep the uptime, and you're generally at the 80-85% of a character's max potential in their gearset, and that's a pretty low bar to set.

If the barometer is balance at perfect play, then at perfect play there is little reason that the jobs shouldn't just have an equivocal or at least close to, contribution to damage with theoretically equivalent supplemental tools. In this viewpoint, the complexity of a job is just a learning curve (And that's pretty much the same angle competitive arena games come from) and, eventually, you're going to have a comparable pool of players across any job that finish the climb.

But then we run into the issue with the ranged. By establishing that balance at perfect play is the goal, then the ranged need to be significantly higher - Not because they're difficult, but because they don't have the secondary tools to justify the deficit.

But, as someone who likes to pick up the shooty shooty root and tooty, I can't justify that from a design perspective. I'm not near perfect play, but the deficit between me and a comparably geared Machinist who was at, if not perfect than much closer than I, was around 500.

Taking my own Gun Ramuh, which needs work, compared to an average 99th, who is likely close to if not BiS, and applying a gear upgrade, puts me at about 4-500 within that mark. Small sample size but I'm busy slamming my head into the Shiva wall.

Now apply a raw increase to match the 99ths to 99ths, and scale me applicably, and I end up at around 18,500, plus or minus for RNG and damage ranges. I'm not a great machinist, but I can pretty much guarantee the potency I'll be spitting out at any given time at any point in any place unless someone decides to murder me. It's probably the most stress free job I've played, Stormblood variant included.

I'm curious on your thoughts, because in the perfect play viewpoint, all jobs should have the same ending point at perfect play (or have something to compensate the line being lower), and the path along the way ultimately doesn't matter so long as the finish line is in the same spot, but this would be like having the track lanes be made of different materials - sand in one, pits in another, and the last being just smooth asphalt.

[Renkei]

See you next time. And no that wasn't an 'ad hominem' attack on you, It was a simple statement of fact that the dragoon rotation is just as easy as the summoner one. If you don't think they deserve their damage for that reason, neither do any of the melee jobs.

Saying stuff like "See you next time" and "Be Careful what you say you play dragoon" is a perfect example of ad hominem, you can deny that all you want but your interjections and actions speak louder then your claims, you dismiss it because you cannot prove whether or not your attack was in fact ad hominem in any of these cases.
You are going out of your way to directly attack me with interjections instead of attacking my position that is the very definition of argumentum ad hominem.

It's a fact that they simplified summoners rotation and increased their damage output but apparently you aren't aware of that because you didn't jump on the summoner train until after they got buffed, Yeah so you admit that Summoners rotation is just as easy as dragoons, but you are dealing more dps and have a raise with that kinda argument and position i guess it would be okay for me to have a raise too and remove all positional damage penalties. Oh wait that's a fact but you are wrong because you've been defending the fact that summoner absolutely deserves to be over powered even though all evidence points to it being over-tuned now that has been established as a fact.

It's in the best interest of everyone and the community to have damage scaled based on risk to reward rather then reward without risk, jobs should be scaled in a fashion in which is appropriate, the current balance isn't appropriate and doesn't show that the jobs are balanced, there should be chance for every class type to shine without it being always casters and always samurai, i actually personally want them to make the jobs more difficult to give everyone more to do there's a lot of button bloat for a lot of jobs that still needs to be addressed but probably won't be until the next expansion.

I agree fully with the notion that ranged should be doing more damage, but the problem currently is that the development team hasn't been doing as many play tests as they should have since they have been busy working on another project.