Ranged has lower DPS due to full uptime but all other jobs also have full uptime

[Aiscence]

Hmmm, there was multiple openers back then and it's been a while. Sorry if I got it wrong!
I never mentionned Barrel Stabilizer as this tier has multiple downtime that aligned it correctly for me, but I didn't optimized the cooldowns yet.
Yes there is optimization in the current MCH kit but it's a different layer of difficulty compared to melee uptime but resources based jobs have the same optimization to deal with. If you take SAM for example it would be how to use the genki gauge and optimizing its DoTs while trying to loose as little Midare as possible.

As for SB MCH, if I could give a good example it would be the Chocobo race from FF X. It's not impossible to reach the 0.00 score but it would have been waaay easier if the chocobo would be easier to maneuver.
The SB MCH was easy on paper to play but had really bad design abilities that could screw you, the "Flamethrower tick" was especially annoying, the heat gauge had really little depth.
Also, the biggest RNG was Wildfire and how it could be influenced by crits. In short, you could have near 20k damage differences depending on if you were really lucky or unlucky with crits.

Gotta say, while I would have loved fixes on SB MCH, I like the Machines direction SE took with ShB MCH. I just hope we will have more interactions with the Automatons in the future, rather than limiting it to be a glorified DoT.

Aha my bad if I seemed agressive, wasnt in a good mood this morning!

There was design flaw in it, but I enjoyed it way more than the actual one tbh. I like some part of the actual kit but they seem to be part of different jobs and not blend together, it's basically like fighting against the job itself at times.

[Crushnight]

devotion, dragon sight, litanny, brotherhood doesnt count... why becaose to god sake you guys are looking at RDPS which already include that, rez? i guess

giving them near drg mnk smn will bassically ruin them.

Then you have to take away since these would be counted for rDPS
- dnc's standard/ technical steps, development and closed position which leaves them with curing waltz, shield samba and improv with the most restricted movement of the physical ranged (3 sets of ranges for its attacks)
-Brd's passive song buffs and battle voice leaving them with troubadour, warden's paean and nature's minne while being the most mobile of the physical ranged.
-mch has tactician and nearly as mobile as brd.

Problem is nothing nadda zip 0 mechanic in any tier of raid that requires the mobility physical range has, casters can freely do it.

People might be more accepting of lower damage output if the mobility was useful but it just isn't.

So either they revert casters back to 3.0 blm levels of immovablity to justify the amount of free movement physical range have or give a buff to physical range so they are better than just the 1% dmg up they don't need melee levels but they do need more than what they currently output it is too low.

[RylaBee]

Problem is nothing nadda zip 0 mechanic in any tier of raid that requires the mobility physical range has, casters can freely do it.

People might be more accepting of lower damage output if the mobility was useful but it just isn't.

While casters have nowadays more tools to mitigate movement requirement, you are wrong if you think that savage raid movement does not hurt their dps compared to "dummy" fights.


That being said, I would just carefully buff all physical ranged dps (slight adjustment in potencies of some abilities at least).
I cannot say if any ranged phys needs it more than others. I feel all 3 of them do.

[Akiudo]

While casters have nowadays more tools to mitigate movement requirement, you are wrong if you think that savage raid movement does not hurt their dps compared to "dummy" fights.


That being said, I would just carefully buff all physical ranged dps (slight adjustment in potencies of some abilities at least).
I cannot say if any ranged phys needs it more than others. I feel all 3 of them do.

the problem is more that all casters start with like a 1000 dps buffer on the physical ranged (redmage slightly less so if compared to mch, mch however is by far the strongest physical ranged dps wise anywhere but at 99.5+ percentile level, also i still believe redmage deserves another 200-300 dps) , yes casters lose dps if they have to move, if however even for screwing up hardcore you lose 500 dps that still leaves you with a buffer off 500 dps than, aswell as the possibility of well, not screwing up but optimizing, which physical ranged simply lack.

while its understandable to say "if one class has to do more to optimize a fight than that should be rewarded" the fact of the matter is casters don't need to optimize anything and still come out ahead, that isn't a slight at casters mind you, that however directly affects the value that "free" movement offers to the group, especially as it stands to reason going by the trend of the last two addons that if anything casters will get more instead of less mobile in the future just like melees will get more tools to compensate for downtime/missed positionals.

free movement is a great tool in theory, it however loses its value almost completly if the more restricted classes can more or less ignore their restrictions and still come out ahead, yet this is what we have.

you could (and yes, i did the math, back on levi, so all positionals hit) miss more than half your positionals, so basically play worse than just randomly hitting the back/side and still only lose like quarter->half the difference between melee/physical ranged, smn could simply use ruin 2 exclusivly instead of ruin 3 and that would cost like 500-600 (raid)dps, which would still leave it ahead even of mch on basically every level, the dps difference being as big as it is basically devalues "free" movement all by itself

[Brandedblade]

This whole conversation has helped me to realize...this game is not designed with optimal play in mind. The way healers play at an optimal skill level and the lower damage of the ranged physical role are good examples of this.

[Karshan]

the problem is more that all casters start with like a 1000 dps buffer on the physical ranged (redmage slightly less so if compared to mch, mch however is by far the strongest physical ranged dps wise anywhere but at 99.5+ percentile level, also i still believe redmage deserves another 200-300 dps) , yes casters lose dps if they have to move, if however even for screwing up hardcore you lose 500 dps that still leaves you with a buffer off 500 dps than, aswell as the possibility of well, not screwing up but optimizing, which physical ranged simply lack.

while its understandable to say "if one class has to do more to optimize a fight than that should be rewarded" the fact of the matter is casters don't need to optimize anything and still come out ahead, that isn't a slight at casters mind you, that however directly affects the value that "free" movement offers to the group, especially as it stands to reason going by the trend of the last two addons that if anything casters will get more instead of less mobile in the future just like melees will get more tools to compensate for downtime/missed positionals.

free movement is a great tool in theory, it however loses its value almost completly if the more restricted classes can more or less ignore their restrictions and still come out ahead, yet this is what we have.

you could (and yes, i did the math, back on levi, so all positionals hit) miss more than half your positionals, so basically play worse than just randomly hitting the back/side and still only lose like quarter->half the difference between melee/physical ranged, smn could simply use ruin 2 exclusivly instead of ruin 3 and that would cost like 500-600 (raid)dps, which would still leave it ahead even of mch on basically every level, the dps difference being as big as it is basically devalues "free" movement all by itself

Just as Akiudo said. If you are losing 500 DPS because of lack of mobility but you're 1000 over by design, in the end you'll be 500 ahaead, and that discrepancy is not justifiable anymore, since the mobility toll of 500 has been paid.

People value too much the impact of mobility on DPS when the whole point of Savage fights is fullest uptime achievable for everyone, and by everyone it includes melees and casters too.

And you could say "well for prog it helps a lot", indeed like the rez on redmage, let's say it's making Range very good at prog. But even on first week, with casters having to run like a headless chicken on some less anticipated mechanics and not having planned full uptime positions, ranged still fell behind, so try again with that excuse but it doesn't work. (you can check stats and DPS progression over the course of weeks on the site that must not be named.

In that matter, there is a lack of balance. Some might say it's only 500, I agree it is not a complete absolute gap, but it is not balanced, by definition, because the gap exists.

[LashL]

Movement literally means nothing at the end of the day when everyone has nearly 100% uptime even in fights like ultimate anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ another over rated thing like rez really.

[Rai_Takara]

Movement literally means nothing at the end of the day when everyone has nearly 100% uptime even in fights like ultimate anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ another over rated thing like rez really.

People optimize to get that, it's not there out of the box, and doing that optimization for a melee is many times harder than it ever is for us ranged.

There really isn't a reason ranged should do more damage unless their uptime is challenging. I'd prefer something like a range positional where you have to be at optimal range for full potency. Something like that would easily justify ranged role as a whole getting buffed. Otherwise, it's kind of moot to say ranged need to be on par with other roles that have a harder time with doing damage. Casters though could use a nerf. BLM and SMN are really strong by their own right and being able to bring two and being just as effective shouldn't be a thing. Melees have it the hardest and as a result should have the highest dps ceiling.

[Miminming]

CMIiW but i believe they have done the damage by distance and bow-mage stuff before and both have bad like... really really bad rep, ranged is probably the job that played the most by casual user along with rdm... they cant just ignore casual user since they pay the same amount of subs as high end raider... and while you can say they cant ignore high end user too the 1% bonus is bassically there to take care of that,
no role will ever miss their spot, while i can see brd and dnc wanting mch par rdps, i dont see any point fighting against other role, so yeah... theres just too much casual ranged player to make the job have any depth...

want high damage? play caster and melee want it easier? play range want a more important role where your party die if you die? do tank and healer etc etc, nobody force you to only play range just be flexible

(and really its just a turn game, 5.0 caster except BLM got it the hardest with 90 percentile RDM and SMN is still losing to 30 percentile BLM and now ranged, next? we dont know yet)

[Miminming]

and brd remeber you guys are the one that screamm reaaaalll harddd to have more support instead of damage, and thats what you got (i must say most of you probably dont want it this way, but what you ask is what you got)