Revelations from Patch 5.2

[QT_Melon]

About your points

Well we also have to remember that this was Elidibus doing. I am not sure if we can trust him on anything. Urianger even states that he lies if it further his goals. Honestly I am not even sure if that was Hydealyns voice at all. It sounded so far away so strange. I wonder if maybe some people are just born with active echos? Seemingly Zenos has dreamed about a destroyed world for a long time, maybe we too already had the echo for quite a bit.

Hydealyn only talking to us directly after getting our first crystal makes imo more sense than her just somehow turning people into WoLs if they get the echo. We had to prove that we are able to be WoLs by getting a crystal (just like Ardbert and his friends) so I doubt that those people are all just WoLs.

About the bold part

That actually would make no sense whatsoever if it was a "Fake voice". Meaning that the entire scene was about the starshower AWAKENING the abilities. A fake voice wouldn't prove this. Because then it would be a fake voice, and people freaking out over illusions and everyone was faked out. Therefore it wouldn't prove that the starshowers ARE a big trigger for echo awakening. Could he be lying about other things? Sure. I just don't think Hydaelyn's voice would necessarily be a lie since that was to help the audience realize that the starshower was the trigger

[Alleo]

About the bold part

That actually would make no sense whatsoever if it was a "Fake voice". Meaning that the entire scene was about the starshower AWAKENING the abilities. A fake voice wouldn't prove this. Because then it would be a fake voice, and people freaking out over illusions and everyone was faked out. Therefore it wouldn't prove that the starshowers ARE a big trigger for echo awakening. Could he be lying about other things? Sure. I just don't think Hydaelyn's voice would necessarily be a lie since that was to help the audience realize that the starshower was the trigger

Well Elidibus already said that it was his illusion so I guess it would also be easy to fake her voice too. I mean the only think it awakens is the echo, which we now know is not from her. I doubt that she just suddenly makes anyone her WoL just by hearing her.

[QT_Melon]

The illusion is a separate issue. Yes, he created an illusion. That's not in dispute. However, saying the voice is faked completely destroys the point written in the story. If anything it shows he isn't the only one using said illusion. This isn't about whether or not I like Hydaelyn or like the Ascians/Zodiark.

This is simply stating these points in the story were created for the specific purpose of confirming the starshower and what it does. That means you have to let go of the idea of "oh this an Asican, therefore a liar and fake voice" and looking at the evidence in an objective manner.

Also hopefully again I was able to get this image gallery correctly as my former post apparently only posted 2 images?

This album contains images from the latest dungeon and a couple from the Hinterlands

I forgot to mention obvious Sharlayan link cuz of the Shire gear and similar structures. But I also mentioned how much the Cystarium also has a lot of these assets that are similar

https://imgur.com/a/ttM2iIZ - also apologies for my HUD in some of these and my character, when I get that dungeon again I'll be happy to make a cleaner album


Another observation. I kind of find it interesting that those that followed Venat - didn't mention tempering. I mean they mention the council being stubborn but noticed they didn't account for possible tempering?


https://imgur.com/a/C9DKA5g




Maybe reading too much into it, but I wonder if the summoning of primals was just such a new concept they aren't familiar to what happens like we do now?

[YianKutku]

One thing I've been wondering is whether it's significant that Elidibus is saying all these people are now Warriors of Light.

As in, we, as player characters, got called the "Warrior of Light" due to reminding people of the heroes of the Seventh Calamity. And those heroes (which might have been us, but I'll assume we're new adventurers for simplicity) are called "Warriors of Light" because they were backlit by a bright glow and that's all everyone can remember about them.

And when we went to the First, we were called the Warrior of Darkness, despite doing what we always do on the Source, and also using the Blessing of Light to deal with the First's aetherial issues. This is because we reminded people of the legend of the Warrior of Darkness (which hasn't really been explained).

So all these titles are given to us by people, rather than by cosmic law or by reference to what we do and how we do it.

Therefore, what significance is there in Elidibus calling the new Echo-blessed "Warriors of Light", as opposed to "Warriors of Darkness"? Or even "Warriors of Fire", or "Warriors of God King Moggle Mog XII, may his pom be forever fluffy"? Is it going to cause a re-tilting towards Light just because of a label?

[Mansion]

So all these titles are given to us by people, rather than by cosmic law or by reference to what we do and how we do it.

Therefore, what significance is there in Elidibus calling the new Echo-blessed "Warriors of Light", as opposed to "Warriors of Darkness"? Or even "Warriors of Fire", or "Warriors of God King Moggle Mog XII, may his pom be forever fluffy"? Is it going to cause a re-tilting towards Light just because of a label?

I think Elidibus is thinking a step beyond that. There is no real meanign in having the WoL-normies-army per se, but rather how these people are easily manipulated into his agenda. I don't think he wants to do anything aether-excess related on the First, but rather for our WoD character out of his pedestal so that we are not trusted to interfere in his next actions. With a large number of persons that believe they are as "special" as we are, we are no longer seen as the hero to whom people will turn to.

If that makes sense ? haha

[Alleo]

Therefore, what significance is there in Elidibus calling the new Echo-blessed "Warriors of Light", as opposed to "Warriors of Darkness"? Or even "Warriors of Fire", or "Warriors of God King Moggle Mog XII, may his pom be forever fluffy"? Is it going to cause a re-tilting towards Light just because of a label?

I think the problem is that thanks to Elidibus speech these people might believe that they are WoLs and that they need to protect the people at all costs. These people were so mindless in their goal that they risked the stability of the Crystarium for it. (Man Elidibus must have +1000 in speech) Most of them then were so afraid by just seeing a simple star shower...I doubt that they would have stayed alive long enough. But people like that who just throw away their current lifestyle to pursue something like that could be dangerous. I mean we started out as simple adventurers too. We did not (as far as we know) leave our old life behind because we were called WoLs and thus need to save the world. We just went out and helped people because we are nice like that. And throught a lot of quests we earned the title WoL, not only from the people but from Hydealyn too.

It could be that he believes that he has them that deep in his pockets that they would even go against us. (Which I would find unbelievable...we were the ones that brought back the night)

With a large number of persons that believe they are as "special" as we are, we are no longer seen as the hero to whom people will turn to.

If that makes sense ? haha

The problem with that is: People did not know that we were special when we came here. We earned it. Those people still have to slay enormous beasts and save their worlds to be even near our status. And as we see with the two soldiers at the end, they do care about us and our opinions. Of course that can all change but honestly they are still just low level adventurers at that point. We should have no problem dealing with them and I cant just see the situation Elidibus creates that would turn all those people against us. (But I do wonder why they were so eager to take up the names of WoLs instead of being called WoDs..after all.the Light still did destroy most of their land..)

[Erendis]

Speaking of Elidibus' speach, are any npcs reacting to us being from another world or everyone just ignored that fact (coz Exarch and stuff)?

[QT_Melon]

I would presume it's a matter of Occam's Razor: Ardbert was known as the Warrior of Light, he appears before them and they hear the voice after the starshower with Ardbert proclaiming this is why they are Warriors of Light.

Is this a bit silly given how quickly they were to hate the former WoLs for the flood? Well yeah. But then again I think this is due to the pace of patches as well. Someone experiencing the story all at once (new player) is going to get a much different perception. (Which all of it was rather light speed)

There was an interview stating that the Ascians have always come to us but we'll be coming to them (Dengeki). I believe this is the setup they're going for where we need to go to Elidibus in this case.

[Quor]

WARNING: RAMPANT SPECULATION AHEAD

In regards to Eden, specifically E8 and the stuff contained therein, something always bothered me and I think I might have put my finger on it:

What if Ryne and Ysayle were shards of the same original soul? What if - through the magical aether control fuckery of Eden, the WoL actually drew out Ysayle's soul from the Lifestream when conjuring forth the image of Shiva? Shiva was unique among the primals in that she both required a host and did not subsume the will of the host towards the goals most primals tended to pursue. Shiva was also unique in that she was a primal-like entity, summoned via primal-like methods, but all contained within an entity with the Echo, something that was (at the time) believed to be the antithesis of primals and their powers.

If Ysayle and Ryne actually do share a soul, it would go at least partway to explaining why Ryne lost control during the fight. Ryne may be young, but she's no slouch; she was able to control and seemingly build almost a relationship with Eden as an entity, using it to do some wondrous things without any kind of negative feedback or consequence. It stands to reason that having seen the WoL face off with 5/6 primal forces of nature, Ryne surmised she had it in her that she could handle that amount of power. Of course we can't discount the confluence of two similar elements like ice and light either, but I don't think that's the end of the story per se.

Now, I know what you're thinking; what about Minfilia? She existed on the Source at the same time that Ysayle existed, therefore they can't be the same soul. And I would agree with that, but I would also note that Ryne is not Minfilia. Minfilia stated in our final meeting with her that she was tired of taking the lives of all these girls and subsuming their souls with her own. She wanted Ryne to be able to choose her own destiny as her own self, and instead of taking over Ryne's body with her soul, she instead gifts her powers to Ryne and leaves her soul intact with Minfilia's soul finally moving into the Lifestream. This allows for the possibility that Ryne and Ysayle could be two shards of the same soul, much like the WoL and Ardbert.

My last bit of evidence comes in the form of these two passages from "Return to Oblivion."

Falling too far
Feel no fear to embrace me
A voice from the past
Screaming, "There is no end now"
A slave to my fight
Am I doomed to repeat this
Again and again and again and again

I'm falling to fast
Now the ground overtakes me
A voice from the past
Echoes out like a drum roll
There's no more goodbyes
And my heart is still aching
I'll open my eyes
One more time
One more time

I believe the first passage refers to Ryne, and is basically being "sung" by Ryne. It jives with her past, as the inheritor of Minfilia's powers and memories, she essentially has the experiences of all the previous incarnations of Minfilia, each one of which fought a losing war against the Sin Eaters until they died, for the past hundred years. Lines like "a slave to my fight" and "am I doomed to repeat this?" lead me to believe that Ryne is having a moment of clarity during the fight where she's aware of what she's doing but is incapable of stopping it. She's afraid she'll trigger another Flood and continue this insane cycle she's been incarnating into.

But the second passage diverges a bit. The imagery evoked in it doesn't fit so easily with Ryne and her experiences as Minfilia's successor. It does however fit pretty well with the final moments we see with Ysayle, as she's basically shot out of the skies around Azys La and plummets to the earth mortally wounded.
"A voice from the past echoes out like a drum roll" this is the WoL calling the power of ice to take form as Shiva, and Eden manifesting it's power to draw forth the latent aether of the First. In the process of this, Ysayle's soul wakens from the voice of her past calling out to her as the physical embodiment of ice.
"There's no more goodbyes and my heart is still aching" is Ysayle - now essentially reincarnated as Shiva - but sharing a body with this girl she's never seen before. A girl who is on the verge of panic because she's about to destroy the world she's tried so hard to save.
"I'll open my eyes one more time one more time" is Ysayle as Shiva resolving herself to whatever fate has plucked her from the afterlife and facing it with her eyes open and head held high. Upon seeing her old friend and comrade in arms, she loses herself completely at the insanity of it all - truly becoming Shiva the primal - and in the process causes Ryne to lose herself as well.

[Alleo]

Did Minfilia really return to the lifestream? I always saw this as her fully joining with Ryne. Just like Ardbert did with us. Also I am not sure if they had said that but what did happen with the souls of the girls before her? Ryne was the first one that seemingly choose to go her own way while the rest gave up and Miniflia took over (and probably died shortly after that..). Did she consume the souls when she took over? Or did she kinda "kill" them by throwing them out of the body into the livestream? Or were they simply dormant?

About your Eden points

I doubt that we somehow just pulled a soul from the lifestream. Seeing how everything was split I believe that the lifestream was too (which would explain why it looks so sick to Emet) which imo makes it quite impossible to just pull a soul from the source. Also seeing how there was no more communication on this, barely any reaction from us and Shiva not looking much like Ysayle I doubt that was the case. Also shouldnt Ysayle even for a short time react at least in some way?

It would honestly not sit well with me..pulling out the soul of a comrade just like that so that we can destroy her again..also since we destroyed her on the first then wouldnt her soul be also stuck there?

No I think its just that Ryne underestimated this. She thought that she would be able to handle it but in the end this was a primal out of a huge amount of ice element and that element is nearest to light which is Rynes "element".