Feedback on Expert Recipes:

[ElazulHP]

So after calming my rage I went back and was able to figure out a "priority rotation" that worked for me. Been able to max out the expert recipe a couple of times now. Still comes down to RNG which is annoying but 2/3 times I can get it to 5k+ which is good enough for me at this point. I just wish there was a way to make this challenging without resorting to RNG because tbh it's pretty frustrating at times.

[Caimie_Tsukino]

The fact is yes it's more rng then it is skill. Nobody will care who's at the #1 spot because it's 80% rng 20% skill.

Actually, you're wrong about another thing -- The #1 spot does not belong to whoever has the most skill or the most luck. It belongs to whoever is the most hardworking in the upcoming 8 days. With my laziness, I doubt I'll even make it top 10 on my server, LOL!

[Caimie_Tsukino]

So after calming my rage I went back and was able to figure out a "priority rotation" that worked for me. Been able to max out the expert recipe a couple of times now. Still comes down to RNG which is annoying but 2/3 times I can get it to 5k+ which is good enough for me at this point. I just wish there was a way to make this challenging without resorting to RNG because tbh it's pretty frustrating at times.

There are definitely a lot of "priorities" and even small little tricks to it, I guarantee ya. You can see how my track record is improving, which means I'm gradually acquiring the knowledge to make the right decisions during what condition with what buff at what durab. Keep it up, and you'll get better and better!

Anyway, had lots of fun today... The process itself is already pretty satisfying. I'm heading to bed now! zzzZZZ

[Kabooa]

So, let me begin by saying I am one of the "RNG is not difficulty" folks. I am pretty opposed to a craft being determined by 'RNG'.

However, recall that outside collectibles, every single craft is a binary pass/fail. Collectibles themselves fall on a gradual scale and are not binary pass/fails, even if the current state of collectibles makes pre-100% the same as a fail.

The Expert Craft is not a binary pass/fail, and the nature of how it changes its "Condition" state has created several methods to approach it. The priority system I listed in the other thread is pretty time inefficient and I imagine others are finding ways to keep step counts in a 40-60 range.

I need to re-emphasize this part

Expert Recipes are collectibles and are not a binary pass/fail. You get what you get, unlike standard crafting where it's either HQ or worthless.

The removal of "Excellent" also removes a 'bad' scenario from the pool. In other words - Every RNG state in the Expert Process is a positive one, with the exception of centered which can be neutral.

The current system is ultimately about CP management, and I imagine as more people work with it, we'll find more efficient priority systems. If the procs were meaningless and you didn't need them, then you're just back to macro crafting.

Resource management is a skill.

Recognizing your quality slam windows is a skill.

Risk evaluation is a skill.

If anything has been made apparent by Expert recipes, it's that we've been stat-crashing our way to victory since basically Heavensward. The "fail 3 times and reclaim" RNG of ARR doesn't apply here. The ability to extend and retain CP and the encouragement to abuse the common Condition states allows for stupid rebounding potential. Blind slamming progress/quality windows is what screws up the process, AKA what we've been doing this whole time.

The only pre-requisite I see for moving this to the main crafting recipes is that the binary pass/fail of HQ/NQ needs to go in favor of the gradual scaling reward. There'd be less to worry about if the "HQ mark" was at 30% quality, and then every break point past that just improves it further in a non-escalating fashion.

[Caimie_Tsukino]

So, let me begin by saying I am one of the "RNG is not difficulty" folks. I am pretty opposed to a craft being determined by 'RNG'.

However, recall that outside collectibles, every single craft is a binary pass/fail. Collectibles themselves fall on a gradual scale and are not binary pass/fails, even if the current state of collectibles makes pre-100% the same as a fail.

The Expert Craft is not a binary pass/fail, and the nature of how it changes its "Condition" state has created several methods to approach it. The priority system I listed in the other thread is pretty time inefficient and I imagine others are finding ways to keep step counts in a 40-60 range.

I need to re-emphasize this part

Expert Recipes are collectibles and are not a binary pass/fail. You get what you get, unlike standard crafting where it's either HQ or worthless.

The removal of "Excellent" also removes a 'bad' scenario from the pool. In other words - Every RNG state in the Expert Process is a positive one, with the exception of centered which can be neutral.

The current system is ultimately about CP management, and I imagine as more people work with it, we'll find more efficient priority systems. If the procs were meaningless and you didn't need them, then you're just back to macro crafting.

Resource management is a skill.

Recognizing your quality slam windows is a skill.

Risk evaluation is a skill.

If anything has been made apparent by Expert recipes, it's that we've been stat-crashing our way to victory since basically Heavensward. The "fail 3 times and reclaim" RNG of ARR doesn't apply here. The ability to extend and retain CP and the encouragement to abuse the common Condition states allows for stupid rebounding potential. Blind slamming progress/quality windows is what screws up the process, AKA what we've been doing this whole time.

The only pre-requisite I see for moving this to the main crafting recipes is that the binary pass/fail of HQ/NQ needs to go in favor of the gradual scaling reward. There'd be less to worry about if the "HQ mark" was at 30% quality, and then every break point past that just improves it further in a non-escalating fashion.

Well said! These Expert Recipes are vastly different from the ARR's "3 Hasty fails and you're gone" scenario. Due to the rather lengthy crafting process, you can actually afford some good amounts of Hasty/Rapid fails, and also chances of NOT getting a particular essential condition is low. Of course, the downside is that it takes quite long to finish 1 craft. But I think it's alright.

I also like the 4500 /5K /6K margins. I think they are quite well-set, so as to better translate the value of a finished product into appropriate amounts of scrips.

[Dan4077]

It's not that @trick - I dint want to tell what it is , and no, observe isn't it either

I love self learning

I saw people using this way of crafting, so it's not like I have invented wheel or some magic

mats cost 10 gill, you lose nothing by trying many different approaches to find it

proper mind set, and off you go ^_^

I do enjoy this

Also I am sorry if I didn't understand You before, looks like we look at it from different perspectives, I really don't want to fight over arguments

I wish You to have great day o/

See if you are unwilling to show/tell do not use it as an argument cause we call that unsubstantiated claim. Cannot come at me with, your doing it wrong there is a trick therefor you are actually wrong then try to use "self learning" as a wall to not show proof.

[Dan4077]

Your anger at the difficulty of Expert recipes is misplaced. SE stated many times that Expert recipes were being designed specifically for those who like to fully pentameld their crafting gear and have been asking for more challenging recipes to tackle. They have no intent of making them the standard for normal crafting, which includes Master recipes.

Just ignore the Expert recipes. They aren't intended for those who want to casually craft and earn gil from it.

I am not angry, can you not be one of those people that go around flinging words like anger, crying, whining,salty, just because I put my opinion on the craft on the forums. That is an incompetent thing to do. I also already stated that if this is all it will ever be I am perfectly fine with it. But companies are known for testing the waters by adding certain things into games and seeing the reactions to it. So I just threw my opinion out, I am not "angry" I already did one it took a decent amount of tries but then i formed "my opinion" and put it up. That is all.

[Sarevok_Thordin]

I am utterly fed up already of the insane RNG required to hit the minimum collectability.

I thought we moved on from HW Hasty Touch Fests, now it's back.

[Hasrat]

I still think rng was probably the only way to go for adding difficulty, something that players have to work around, rather than work through. This is hopefully only the first demonstration of what rng effects they can bring to the table.

But without any rng, all you have is "What's the rotation?" And that's not very difficult.

[Shadygrove]

I am not angry...

You sound angry. Especially when you go "STUPID." Its also why someone called you salty.

Reading your posts I get the picture of you jumping up and down and stamping your feet.

Try this before you next hit post:

Write your post. Get up, go outside, walk around the block. Or stomp around the block. Perhaps kick a lamp post or three, maybe a mailbox on the way.

Take three long slow deep breaths before you sit down and reread your post.

Edit your post. THEN hit post.