Ranged DPS, choose a weakness that would justify a buff

[CKNovel]

I wasn't talking about the cooldown. But I actually don't remember how long hypercharge was if I'm totally honest but pretty sure it was longer than TA as in the debuff.

And thanks for stating the obvious and just furthering my point on creating an imbalance. BRD and MCH don't need drg anymore now, so lets say if BRD and mch still had their buffs back in the good ol' HW days.
The meta would most likely be BRD/MCH/NIN and probably BLM since they're the strongest ST dps in the game.
And I actually don't see groups locking out two physical range, heck I cleared ES7 with two physical range.

The only people locking out those jobs are the same people that was locking out samurai's in SB and Nin in early SHB. Those people are the minority.

... This has to be a troll, right?
Hypercharge: 120s CD, 20s duration (30s), 5% physical only in HW, all in SB.
Trick Attack: 60s CD, 10s duration, 10% all damage.

Overrall same duration if not one more for TA depending the fight and 10s bursts were a thing.

Ranged were allowed to have these damages because they had casts+relying on composition and I never said I wanted BLM damages.
We don't want to fill the gap, we want to reduce it, do your homework.

[xxvaynxx]

... This has to be a troll, right?
Hypercharge: 120s CD, 20s duration (30s), 5% physical only in HW, all in SB.
Trick Attack: 60s CD, 10s duration, 10% all damage.

Overrall same duration if not one more for TA depending the fight and 10s bursts were a thing.

Ranged were allowed to have these damages because they had casts+relying on composition and I never said I wanted BLM damages.
We don't want to fill the gap, we want to reduce it, do your homework.

I just said I don't remember how long hypercharge lasted. So not sure how I was trolling?
Please point out where I said you said you wanted to be strong as a blm? what are you even reading?

Anyway, just to not come off as ignorant. I did a peek at fflogs to see where your role stands and it seems about right, you guys should be weaker than casters seeing how casters have to sit still while you guys can just yo-yo around if you pleased and still dps.

If you want to do big dps and stay ranged, play caster. Simple as that, stop trying to form a support focused meta again. Every job is fine where it is and the most balanced it has been in forever.
Raid groups are finally diverse and not trying to look for certain jobs because they "think" they need it.
DNC is the weakest dps because the buff they give, bard is the second weakest with battle voice and then MCH.
Now if they really wanted to buff one of the jobs in your role it should only be mch since they have no support other than the raid wide defense.

[Lastelli]

DNC is the weakest dps because the buff they give, bard is the second weakest with battle voice and then MCH.
Now if they really wanted to buff one of the jobs in your role it should only be mch since they have no support other than the raid wide defense.

Actually, fflogs already gives the dps buff contribution to the originator of that buff, meaning that the 3 ranged dps are very close, especially DNC and MCH. Therefore, MCH shouldn't really be buffed. If anything, BRD should receive a very minor buff. The problem with BRD, though, is that it has a niche where it's incredibly strong: when there are 2 or 3 targets for a prolonged period of time, BRD is stronger than the other 2 ranged by a significant amount. However, in real fights, this scenario is very rare. In this savage tier, for instance, there's only e7s add phase.

[Akiudo]

Actually, fflogs already gives the dps buff contribution to the originator of that buff, meaning that the 3 ranged dps are very close, especially DNC and MCH. Therefore, MCH shouldn't really be buffed. If anything, BRD should receive a very minor buff. The problem with BRD, though, is that it has a niche where it's incredibly strong: when there are 2 or 3 targets for a prolonged period of time, BRD is stronger than the other 2 ranged by a significant amount. However, in real fights, this scenario is very rare. In this savage tier, for instance, there's only e7s add phase.

looking at an all fights metric (just to smooth out outliers) bard is about 5% below mch on all percentile levels, dnc right now seems to be even weaker, either people (as i've read this argument that they are very close from multiple people, some going as far as "buff mch, the other physical are fine as they offer support") have an interesting definition of "very close" or they really think the pittance of support brd has left is worth a 5% dps gap. the physical ranged are about as "very close" to each other as redmage is to blackmage, just that in that case at least redmage offers real support (a rezz) and better consistency, and i would still argue redmage could use another 100-200 dps.

[Lastelli]

looking at an all fights metric (just to smooth out outliers) bard is about 5% below mch on all percentile levels, dnc right now seems to be even weaker

This should make you realize that fflogs data is not all that matters. If DNC is weaker, why is it the preferred choice for speedrunners even now? Of course, it means that despite fflogs showing DNC as weaker than MCH and BRD, that's actually not the case, as fflogs is stil not perfect at estimating the effect of party buffs, especially in highly synergistic compositions.
Anyway, I'm not against a minor buff to BRD single target dps. However, if that were to happen, stormbite, caustic bite and iron jaws should receive the gnashing fang treatment and become a 30 seconds cd (20-25 seconds for iron jaws) linked to the gcd to mitigate multidotting abuse.

[Akiudo]

This should make you realize that fflogs data is not all that matters. If DNC is weaker, why is it the preferred choice for speedrunners even now?

the notion that the evil evil parsing side is off by more than 500 dps, like off by enough more that groups simply realize this other class is better is one i will sincerely doubt.

Realistically the answer will be more in the realm of: "people just like to use what they know", yes people are like that. if not that than maybe they are right, dnc is stronger than mch at 99,5+ percentiles and therefore better for speedruns, especially as due to proccs alone dancer is a class with more volatile damage numbers than mch. in a normal group if the dancer is allways 300 under the mch unless its his god run than you will say fuck that, dnc sucks. if you are doing 30 runs in a row just hoping for the one best run ever that changes completly, at that point you may aswell say "whatever, everyone else just play perfectly, we try till our dancer has his god run".

However, even if performance on dancer was as consistent as it is on mch, which it is not, its still a fucked up thing to make a class effectivly suck for 99% of the playerbase so the top 1% doesn't "abuse" it, mind you the top 1% of raiders, not of all players. speedrunners going for top spots are a ridiculisly small sub group and there will allways be a "best" class, balancing around that is like draining the ocean while trying to get 2 perfectly equal cups of water, its futile AND stupid.

[Lastelli]

the notion that the evil evil parsing side is off by more than 500 dps, like off by enough more that groups simply realize this other class is better is one i will sincerely doubt.

Realistically the answer will be more in the realm of: "people just like to use what they know", yes people are like that. if not that than maybe they are right, dnc is stronger than mch at 99,5+ percentiles and therefore better for speedruns, especially as due to proccs alone dancer is a class with more volatile damage numbers than mch. in a normal group if the dancer is allways 300 under the mch unless its his god run than you will say fuck that, dnc sucks. if you are doing 30 runs in a row just hoping for the one best run ever that changes completly, at that point you may aswell say "whatever, everyone else just play perfectly, we try till our dancer has his god run".

However, even if performance on dancer was as consistent as it is on mch, which it is not, its still a fucked up thing to make a class effectivly suck for 99% of the playerbase so the top 1% doesn't "abuse" it, mind you the top 1% of raiders, not of all players. speedrunners going for top spots are a ridiculisly small sub group and there will allways be a "best" class, balancing around that is like draining the ocean while trying to get 2 perfectly equal cups of water, its futile AND stupid.

That's part of the deal. Higher variance means higher risk. Your payoff for that higher risk is higher potential damage at higher percentiles. Making DNC as good as MCH in an average run would just kill MCH in all possible scenarios. DNC being lower than MCH at lower percentiles is a necessity dictated by its own design. At least now MCH is good in a prog/unoptimized setting...and this is the only case where it's marginally better than the other two.
Also, you're ignoring the specificities of the 3 jobs. Among the 3 ranged dps, DNC benefits greatly from downtime, unlike MCH and BRD. BRD, on the other hand, becomes absurdly powerful in a multi-target scenario, which is pretty good for DNC as well thanks to standard/tech finish and saber dance (MCH struggles in this case). Just because savage doesn't usually show these peculiarities, it doesn't mean they aren't there (look at ultimate data, for instance). If you want to homogenize single target damage for the 3 ranged, the first step is to make sure to remove these scenarios where one has a clear advantage over the others.

Anyway, give it a little time and you'll see DNC reaching MCH level of rdps on fflogs soon enough.