Come up with ideas to fix Ranged Physical Dps please.

[Risvertasashi]

And anyone with a shred of objectivity, knows that SMN is broken and needs to be brought down a peg. If the arguement for bringing up phys ranged is "BUT SMN THO" maybe just maybe ranged are fine and it's smn that's the issue.

As far as bringing back bow/gun mage. I've got bad news for you. A sizable portion of people playing phys ranged play them nearly exclusively for their freedom of movement. The disdain for HW bowmage was tremendous and bringing it back will see these forums explode with posts asking to have it removed again.

I mean I don't disagree with you. I already made a thread that upset a bunch of people saying that the phys ranged role as a whole was fine but just needed some internal adjustments (BRD in particular needs some love). But it also makes the "low risk low reward" argument fall flat and SE doesn't seem to care about SMN being on top while having rez, a lot of freedom of movement, etc.

BLM was only superior to SMN in very specific scenarios where it could minimize movement and only in full uptime encounters like final omega...after 2 series of buffs at the end of the expansion. So saying that BLM had the highest theoretical dps is misleading at best.

I feel like you didn't actually read my post very closely. That's why SB BLM wasn't dominant, yeah? Nothing wrong with it having more potential when that potential is hard to realize. And neither SMN nor BLM were as dominant as SMN is now.

[Lastelli]

I feel like you didn't actually read my post very closely. That's why SB BLM wasn't dominant, yeah?

No. This has nothing to do with potential. There are enough skilled BLMs out there that are fully able to maximize what the job is capable of in any encounter. The problem is simply that BLM's theoretical superiority (=dummy scenario) didn't translate well in actual encounters because of things like downtime (which SMN really loved because of the bursty nature of its rotation and how aetherflow worked back then), kill times, buff windows and so on. Furthermore, back in Alphascape, having a strong BLM in your party automatically made a 2-caster comp meta because of contagion.
Things were...complicated. That's why I said that saying that BLM was superior is misleading.

[Akiudo]

snip

maybe, just maybe bowmage was so despised not because it added constraints to the class but because it was fundamentally tacked on, you know, classes can simply "not flow" so to speak, that however is not inherit to castbars, redmage has and has allways had castbars, it also "feels" complete in what it does, heavensward mch also was mostly disliked for being worse than bard numbers wise, at least until close to the end where the damage had been done, mch simply had a bad image, not however for the cast bars. Long story short , bowmage was clunky as hell, bard simply has never been designed around cast bars and instead of redesigning it when heavensward came out they simply tacked on castbars and said "done"

[Risvertasashi]

maybe, just maybe bowmage was so despised not because it added constraints to the class but because it was fundamentally tacked on, you know, classes can simply "not flow" so to speak, that however is not inherit to castbars, redmage has and has allways had castbars, it also "feels" complete in what it does, heavensward mch also was mostly disliked for being worse than bard numbers wise, at least until close to the end where the damage had been done, mch simply had a bad image, not however for the cast bars. Long story short , bowmage was clunky as hell, bard simply has never been designed around cast bars and instead of redesigning it when heavensward came out they simply tacked on castbars and said "done"

Also worth noting, post-5.1 SMN weaves tons better than HW bard mage ever did. HW bard even had cast times on an oGCD... that was clipping purgatory.

[Renkei]

I feel like in some circumstances you can give ranged attacks cast times and it be perfectly appropriate, but that 1.25 second cast time you had in heavenwards clipped weaving by .50 seconds which wasn't cool at all! if you reduced it to 0.75, maybe perhaps in the future I'd be more interesting, DW though, all jobs are kinda having these identity issues right now.

[KDSilver]

World first group had a bard in their comp.
I feel like all these outcry about ranged physical are a bit exaggerated sometimes.

[Risvertasashi]

World first group had a bard in their comp.
I feel like all these outcry about ranged physical are a bit exaggerated sometimes.

Any job can clear any content. SE balances that way intentionally and, yes, it's true "it could be worse" (but that is always true). It doesn't mean they couldn't have done better with a different comp, it doesn't mean some jobs don't struggle more than others.

World first ultimate group also had a DRK back in Stormblood, but that doesn't mean DRK didn't have issues back then. And savage world first isn't nearly as challenging as ultimate.

[Mavrias]

Meanwhile, SMN gets entire phases of full instant casts and generous movement options outside of those phases, but that doesn't stop it from topping the charts...

You still don't want to move much in those instant cast phases. Phoenix and Bahamut won't attack while moving and they're glued to you at the hip.

[Akiudo]

Also worth noting, post-5.1 SMN weaves tons better than HW bard mage ever did. HW bard even had cast times on an oGCD... that was clipping purgatory.

pretty sure every single literation of blackmage could have woven better than bowmage given the sheer number of ogcd skills including randomly proccing blodletter proccs bard had.

funnily enough that is what made me actually switch to mch for some time during heavensward, which is one of the main reasons i can with confidence say most people don't know what they are talking about when they say things like "oh yea, but phys ranged are so easy, give them back cast times than they would be fine to ask for damage cause they would actually take some skill." People don't even really know what cast times mean (or don't mean for that matter).

mch never felt restricted in his movement do to gauß barrel, yes it was an existing restriction, but you had tools to work around it (just like classes like summoner, redmage or even blackmage nowadays have) which actually worked really well as the class was designed around them, using gauß barrel was barely harder than not using it, heck after 10 minutes of playtime it was barely noticible, yet people act like mch would suddenly be deserving of another 1000 dps if it had something like gb again. on the other hand if blackmage suddenly had all instant casts but would even under perfect play deal damage like a phys ranged does now literally no one would say "oh yea, i'm doing 1500 dps less now, but its totally worth it as i never make a mistake anymore, except when i do but oh well"

Thats what i think is really the great part about this all, people act like casters/melee need more dps as its easier to fuck up on them, yet we are in a situation were even if they fuck up majorly they still do better than physical ranged but that is somehow fine.

You still don't want to move much in those instant cast phases. Phoenix and Bahamut won't attack while moving and they're glued to you at the hip.

the problem is that while yes, you are correct, you still don't want to move much (though it does work quite well for some "move out the aoe effect that targeted you" movement) even if you DO move a lot during these phases the dps it would cost you would still leave you a pretty damn buffer on the physical ranged, and yes smn may very well still be somewhat overpowered, but lets be real here, if they nerf smn by more than 300 dps at this point it will get eaten up between blm and redmage, so that won't happen, fact of the matter is the general level of smn damage will stay, it literally has to unless they nerf blackmage or redmage (which actually i would say could still use another 150-200 dps but thats a different discussion)

so we got
1. smn as is, i think no one will deny that smn in a way is op
2. blackmage, which for all "its so hard to use, literally unplayable if you make mistakes, so punishing" literally is 3rd highest dps starting at the 10% percentile and only keeps rising
3. redmage which probably has the best claim to "need some more dps to compensate for harder gameplay (compared to physical ranged)" in the sense that it deals somewhat better damage while having somewhat of a movement restriction.

on 2 out of these 3 classes you can literally mess up completly and still outperform any physical ranged, yes, you don't "want" to move during phoenix, but doing so still leaves you outperforming say bard by 1300 dps or so afterwards.

[Miminming]

SMN is strong, but they are not your competition and as much as they looks free to move all the time, all of that movement have an impact on their dps, they are strong though...

as for ranged i said its actually kinda ok as their are pretty balanced in their role, maybe a little buff but make suke they still bellow melee and caster (why play melee and caster is the 100% free moving job can do more damage?)

im pretty sure bard and dancer have more potential ahead more than mch because of rdps