It's time (Option to Hide other players Glamour)

[Granyala]

Oh, I've seen mods. Most seem to be the adult... kinky kind. Same as in WoW.
Did like the idea of the white Y'shtola ShB robe though and the screenshot of a bulldozer mount in Tamamizu almost made me fall of my chair laughing.

It is never going to happen but I and many others tried to just talk about how a feature like this could be added, but no matter what people cannot seem to look past why someone may want the feature. The world we live in right.

Oh, I completely understand the motivation, even if I think it is misguided.
I simply don't agree that such a drastic solution is warranted.

As evidenced by this thread, there are many ways of implementing such a feature, vastly differing in both, their feasibility (considering DEV resources) and their collateral effects.

EDIT: to clarify the game is SE's property, and using mods that change how that property looks does infringe on their ownership rights. But using third party software to edit a screenshot is not. Because the screenshot is not the game.

Actually it's not even about that.
To put it simply: mods can be used to cheat, esp in PvP environments (less of an issue for XIV).
That's basically the sole reason why MMO companies are against them and ban people if they find out.

IIRC in WoW, a guild used a client side mod to bypass half of Ahn Qiraj and get to the last boss C'thun. Needless to say, that didn't end well.

Yes, copyright blah also factors into this but as long as you don't make a buck off the property, most game companies don't care.

And yes, I am allowed to modify the game client.

End User License Agreement you signed disagrees.
You are NOT allowed to modify the game files in any way.

[DumdogsWorld]

Yes, just like how it's okay to take a photo of a building, and draw on the photograph but it's not okay to tamper with the building itself.

That analogy does not work. A building is not a copy of a building. A building is a building.

What I do to my screen has zero effect on Square Enix servers, where everything is taking place. The entire game client is a copy.

And yes, I am allowed to modify the game client. Square Enix is also allowed to ban me as a response. We are all allowed to do what we want with our computer and/or server systems.

Yes, just like how it's okay to take a photo of a building, and draw on the photograph but it's not okay to tamper with the building itself.
End User Licens Agreement you signed disagrees.
You are NOT allowed to modify the game files in any way.

Yes, I am. All it means is that I lose my license if I do.

But the files can sit on my hard drive modified and yet unplayable, forever. Square Enix can't do anything about it.

[Awha]

Oh, I've seen mods. Most seem to be the adult... kinky kind. Same as in WoW.
Did like the idea of the white Y'shtola ShB robe though and the screenshot of a bulldozer mount in Tamamizu almost made me fall of my chair laughing.


Oh, I completely understand the motivation, even if I think it is misguided.
I simply don't agree that such a drastic solution is warranted.

As evidenced by this thread, there are many ways of implementing such a feature, vastly differing in both, their feasibility (considering DEV resources) and their collateral effects.

Overall yeah I do not expect people to read back all the way but when I started to post in this thread I did mention I was only posting in a hypothetical sense since I know this will never happen in a million years, and I do not like using the word never. Main reason this a company that locks content behind the MSQ, so they are big on presentation, and I get it 100% joking aside I do think it would be fun to spit ball ideas about how such a thing could be added to see if some wonky world both sides could come up with a compromise. Way I have always seen it we are gamers enjoying the same game and part of the same community, everyone wants to enjoy the game and unfortunately no uniform way of doing that, but little things do move towards that direction. That is why I am a huge fan of mods despite the negative, they do allow for more player control and I get why the devs cannot allow such things since sadly as gamers we cannot be trusted to not break something, but for me that sense of player control is worth the risk or this case the conversation.

[Penthea]

Actually it's not even about that.
To put it simply: mods can be used to cheat, esp in PvP environments (less of an issue for XIV).
That's basically the sole reason why MMO companies are against them and ban people if they find out.

IIRC in WoW, a guild used a client side mod to bypass half of Ahn Qiraj and get to the last boss C'thun. Needless to say, that didn't end well.

Yes, copyright blah also factors into this but as long as you don't make a buck off the property, most game companies don't care.

Well I was referring specifically to the other person drawing on screenshots and somehow thinking it's the same as using mods, when legally and practically speaking it is not. Thinking they are the same would be like saying drawing a mustache on a person's actual face is the same as drawing a mustache on a photograph of that person.

And yea I totally understand the various reasons why mods are often forbidden in games, especially the kind that can change how an environment or characters look. They can be used for cheating, even mods that only change outfits, because it can make enemies of the opposing pvp team easier to spot. They can also be used for harassment if the mods allow more lewd visual content than the game or the player's actual outfit permits.

As well, and I can tell you this as a fact because I personally know WoW GMs, SE likely know that if they do permit mods of any kind then their support teams will get customers asking about it. Blizzard GMs regularly get tickets from players asking for help with mods, even though they're not even made by Blizzard. They also get tickets from players who have issues running the game smoothly and the culprit is sometimes a mod. I can see why some game companies would rather avoid this.

[Granyala]

As well, and I can tell you this as a fact because I personally know WoW GMs, SE likely know that if they do permit mods of any kind then their support teams will get customers asking about it. Blizzard GMs regularly get tickets from players asking for help with mods, even though they're not even made by Blizzard. They also get tickets from players who have issues running the game smoothly and the culprit is sometimes a mod. I can see why some game companies would rather avoid this.

You are confusing UI-addons with client-mods but yes, people would run to CS if they didn't manage to get a mod working, aye.

They can also be used for harassment if the mods allow more lewd visual content than the game or the player's actual outfit permits.

Eeeh.. WHAT? How is that harassment? That doesn't compute at all.
Though you did basically describe 2/3rs of the currently existing client modifications. Most are centered around lewding stuff.

That is why I am a huge fan of mods despite the negative, they do allow for more player control and I get why the devs cannot allow such things since sadly as gamers we cannot be trusted to not break something, but for me that sense of player control is worth the risk or this case the conversation.

Yeah, mods are awesome in pretty much any game.
Man how I would love a mod that removed the pointless big and honking gold text from stuff like quest acceptance, retainers, fates, party joins etc.

Also.... my kitten desperately wants to curl up in bed ... WITHOUT HAVING TO WEAR FRIGGIN SANDALS!

[Awha]

I am going to hate myself, but how is that harassment? Maybe I could see it if they posted they images on forums with your character name and location visible I could leading to some interesting tells, maybe even some fam. In the end you properly would just be weird fap bait 12,252,151 or could be a FFXIV verison icloud image hack dump, expect you do not tale the image. Last part was a joke.

Do not get me wrong I do get the general mindset, with bevy of mental issues I do go through my moments of projecting my personal view of myself as the view others have of me, but in the end as my doctor tells me I have no way of knowing how a personal reaally feels about me unless I ask, and if I do not ask no point making assumptions.

Sort of with lewd ingame pics you prob are not going to know, and even if you did find out ones character is not them, even thought it might feel as such. I have a different view then most though.

I know of a person who got harassed because someone posted screenshots of their character that was made nude by a mod, and some were saying some really creepy stuff about the player. It actually started a massive fight in their guild.

I know someone else who got harassed because their gear (no transmog/glam at the time) was quite revealing and some people thought it permitted them to say some really awful things about them, which unfortunately mostly happened on a third party site (where screenshots taken from uncompromising angles were posted) so Blizzard couldn't do anything about it because there was almost no proof they could access from their own servers.

I personally had some people say some really weird and intrusive things to me because my gear (again no transmog/glam at the time) revealed skin in the places that they liked. It was over quickly with GM intervention but it didn't happen only once.

I have been playing mmorpgs for a very very long time. There are unfortunately a lot of weirdos out there. And some of them will use whatever tools they have to engage in their creepy activities.

I get what you are saying, but that has less to do with the mods, or what they wore and more so with people can dicks, I know because I am an ass.

A lot of mean people in the world, a group of friends got together because some person made a comment we did not like about a friend of ours regarding their male bunny cosplay. So we all dressed up as such and followed that person around, not saying anything just following we were his only little hare-em, that was a bad one could nor resist though.

In the end it did upset the person, did cause some FC drama, they did try to report it or so they claim but nothing happened to us, and allegedly the person stopped playing. I do not think so, but that is what we were told.

[Penthea]

Eeeh.. WHAT? How is that harassment? That doesn't compute at all.
Though you did basically describe 2/3rs of the currently existing client modifications. Most are centered around lewding stuff.

I know of a person who got harassed because someone posted screenshots of their character that was made nude by a mod, and some were saying some really creepy stuff about the player. It actually started a massive fight in their guild.

I know someone else who got harassed because their gear (no transmog/glam at the time) was quite revealing and some people thought it permitted them to say some really awful things about them, which unfortunately mostly happened on a third party site (where screenshots taken from uncompromising angles were posted) so Blizzard couldn't do anything about it because there was almost no proof they could access from their own servers.

I personally had some people say some really weird and intrusive things to me because my gear (again no transmog/glam at the time) revealed skin in the places that they liked. It was over quickly with GM intervention but it didn't happen only once.

I have been playing mmorpgs for a very very long time. There are unfortunately a lot of weirdos out there. And some of them will use whatever tools they have to engage in their creepy activities.

EDIT: it is because of the above experiences that I would only be able to tolerate glam removal if the glams were replaced by modest gear. Some combat gear is super revealing. Let's not have a situation in which someone in full plate is unglammed without their knowledge in to the shisui gear, and some creep decides to have fun with screenshots.

[Granyala]

There are unfortunately a lot of weirdos out there. And some of them will use whatever tools they have to engage in their creepy activities.

True dat, my Draenei got hit on multiple times, one even asked for a IRL telephone number. I'd never consider that harassment though.
If s/o steps out of line -> GM and that will be the end of it.

I still don't get how s/o can be harassed with a screenshot that has obvious client modifications visible. Every sane person would automatically disqualify such a screenshot.
Oh yes I still remember black mageweave and other low level skimpy stuff (esp. early TBC, Blizard seems to have lost it's appetite for that later on).

My Draenei often wore really crappy gear during leveling because she refused to wear the better (but skimpy) gear.
She always said: I'm a priestess, not a girl for sale.

EDIT: it is because of the above experiences that I would only be able to tolerate glam removal if the glams were replaced by modest gear. Some combat gear is super revealing. Let's not have a situation in which someone in full plate is unglammed without their knowledge in to the shisui gear, and some creep decides to have fun with screenshots.

Yep, that was one of my worries as well. Not because I am afraid of some Internet hero but because I simply do not want others to see Ifalna in revealing outfits. Seeing her in that way is reserved for a select few people she intimately trusts.

[Penthea]

I still don't get how s/o can be harassed with a screenshot that has obvious client modifications visible. Every sane person would automatically disqualify such a screenshot.
Oh yes I still remember black mageweave and other low level skimpy stuff (esp. early TBC, Blizard seems to have lost it's appetit for that later on).

Then I will go into more detail.

So the second player I mentioned, who got harassed over screenshots taken from uncompromising angles in revealing gear, at a time when transmog/glam did not exist.

First of all the screenshots were cropped and/or blacked out any names and chatlogs that showed who actually took the screenshot, but left the name of the subject above their head. So it was clear who the figure was in the screenshot, but impossible to tell who took it. The player knew who it was because they were on a forum together, but they had no way to prove to Blizzard that the person who owned that forum account was the same player they were accusing of harrasment.

The person in the screenshots was very shy so some people thought it would be hilarious to talk about how she is a closet skank because of her outfit in the game. They said some really sexually explicit things about her and then mused about what they would do to her character. It went on for several weeks. Then a rumour started that she was the one posting the screenshots herself in order to seek attention.

Because she could not prove to Blizzard who was behind the harassment, the only thing she could do to escape the situation was to quit the game or start again on another character. At the time server transfer, name change, race and gender change did not exist. If you wanted to be someone new and go somewhere new, you had to create another character.

While this is an extreme situation the point is that these things do occur. I'm not comfortable with the idea of glam removal defaulting to the equipped gear, racial gear or AF gear because some of it can be very revealing, especially on females. If a player chooses to not show certain skin, then no other player should be able to see it. So this is why I say if glam removal comes to the game it should put players into modest outfits, to reduce the chances of a situation like the above happening.

And no I do not take issue with players who choose to glam in revealing gear. That is their choice and I respect it. And I would like others to respect my choice to not to dress in that way.

[Granyala]

The person in the screenshots was very shy so some people thought it would be hilarious to talk about how she is a closet skank because of her outfit in the game. They said some really sexually explicit things about her and then mused about what they would do to her character. It went on for several weeks. Then a rumour started that she was the one posting the screenshots herself in order to seek attention.
Because she could not prove to Blizzard who was behind the harassment, the only thing she could do to escape the situation was to quit the game

If a player chooses to not show certain skin, then no other player should be able to see it.

Hmm, any respectable forum would have banned the offenders. In this case the persons posting their fantasies and the screenshots.
Yes Blizzard can't do anything in such a case, because to them it's all hearsay. The people in her guild were idiots. Even if she posted the screens for attention seeking, I still don't see a problem with "revealing clothes" in a PEGI-12 game. I mean, there is nothing to see there.

Instead of quitting the game, wouldn't have a different choice of ingame attire been the much easier way? After all, yes skimpy stuff exists in low level (even in high level AQ robes etc) but there was always a choice. As long as she wan't a cutting edge raider (fat chance with that personality) it wouldn't have mattered.

Completely agreed on the second part. But IMHO that also goes for the reverse. If a player chooses to display skin, no other player should be able to cover it up.