It's time (Option to Hide other players Glamour)

[Dan4077]

... I'm curious.. Why do you think so? How do you think your PS4 knows what to draw on people or where to put them on your screen?

It is not that I think so, it is that I KNOW so. The one person was saying that they would like to add a person to a sort of blacklist and that would strip the glamour off to default gear. That would be more for the system to load up and remember. So depending on how much a person used it think of what that does.

Now the original posters idea COULD be worked with. There is a way to just make everyone into a default look and it would actually save you load time, fps so on. But that right there would completely wash their "my immersion" argument down the drain. Cause PWI did was when you toggled it everyone in game would look like the default starter of each race before they started customizing it. So idk about them but that sounds a lot more immersion breaking then seeing the occasional weird outfit.

[Awha]

It is not that I think so, it is that I KNOW so. The one person was saying that they would like to add a person to a sort of blacklist and that would strip the glamour off to default gear. That would be more for the system to load up and remember. So depending on how much a person used it think of what that does.

Now the original posters idea COULD be worked with. There is a way to just make everyone into a default look and it would actually save you load time, fps so on. But that right there would completely wash their "my immersion" argument down the drain. Cause PWI did was when you toggled it everyone in game would look like the default starter of each race before they started customizing it. So idk about them but that sounds a lot more immersion breaking then seeing the occasional weird outfit.

Thing about the immersion argument is that we cannot say beyond what they have told us would or would not view as immersion breaking. Being as that was their idea it would be unfair in my opinion to make the claim it would it ruin their immersion since maybe in their mind it would not be much of an issue.

Personally I think the best way to approach this is in the same way we view blacklisting, lanague filters, performance muting etc . . . as a means of enhancing the personal enjoyment for others if they so desire to enable such features. If one puts the personal issues aside and look at it from that scope the idea is not so radical, like you mentioned another game did it to ehance performance, not 100% certain how it worked but that does seem like a feature that could enhance ones personal enjoyment of a game.

[Dan4077]

Thing about the immersion argument is that we cannot say beyond what they have told us would or would not view as immersion breaking. Being as that was their idea it would be unfair in my opinion to make the claim it would it ruin their immersion since maybe in their mind it would not be much of an issue.

Personally I think the best way to approach this is in the same way we view blacklisting, lanague filters, performance muting etc . . . as a means of enhancing the personal enjoyment for others if they so desire to enable such features. If one puts the personal issues aside and look at it from that scope the idea is not so radical, like you mentioned another game did it to ehance performance, not 100% certain how it worked but that does seem like a feature that could enhance ones personal enjoyment of a game.

Understandable, how it worked though was say you were creating a new character. Like a human it always gives you a default look. That game would change all the characters to look like that with the same clothes. Also true they might not find it lure breaking. However, for me and apparently others being seen in there glamours is just as important to them as wearing it. People like to look cool and nice not to mention role play, and their characters look is a deep part of that. Its part of the allure of an MMORPG for many.

Some care some don't.

[Awha]

Understandable, how it worked though was say you were creating a new character. Like a human it always gives you a default look. That game would change all the characters to look like that with the same clothes. Also true they might not find it lure breaking. However, for me and apparently others being seen in there glamours is just as important to them as wearing it. People like to look cool and nice not to mention role play, and their characters look is a deep part of that. Its part of the allure of an MMORPG for many.

Some care some don't.

I do understand that for many that is the alure of mmos, but just like those other features (blacklisting, performance muting, effects, language filters) that are meant to give players more control over their own personal gameplay experience at the expense of others personal expression. In the end, outside of three situtions I can think of, you catch them streaming with your character on screen, you find a screen shot that happens to have your character, or they happen to mention they had said feature enabled.

I am into moding, so I have a bias but way I see it personally if I mod the game to turn characters on my screen into a certain NPC that change should not detract from anothers enjoyment, since in the end I find it silly to allow something like that detract from ones enjoyment since that would mean that the person in question would have to make the assumption that a person is using mods or a feature to alter the way their character looks and as such it does not matter what their character looks like. Seems like a massive limit one would place on themselvs simply based off an asumption.

In the end I have not messed around much with other character mods, but I do know of people that have done some wonky stuff client side. Granted I know this will never happen, but I enjoy talking about the topic, and if I had any control over it I would make it all or nothing and if it was enabled I would put everyone beside the pimary player char in a basic black robe or something. All-in-all I am always one for more options that provide players with more agency that allows them to enhance their own personal expereince by altering social elements they may find bothersome for whatever reason, within reason of course. Now this is not to say that I think certain glam is inherent bad or anything like that, I am frog suit player myself. I just know for personal expereince that anything can be used as a means to harrass or bother another person, since I often mess around with my friends bothering others doing weird shit.

I know my stance can lead to some funky reductios.

[Dan4077]

I do understand that for many that is the alure of mmos, but just like those other features (blacklisting, performance muting, effects, language filters) that are meant to give players more control over their own personal gameplay experience at the expense of others personal expression. In the end, outside of three situtions I can think of, you catch them streaming with your character on screen, you find a screen shot that happens to have your character, or they happen to mention they had said feature enabled.

I am into moding, so I have a bias but way I see it personally if I mod the game to turn characters on my screen into a certain NPC that change should not detract from anothers enjoyment, since in the end I find it silly to allow something like that detract from ones enjoyment since that would mean that the person in question would have to make the assumption that a person is using mods or a feature to alter the way their character looks and as such it does not matter what their character looks like. Seems like a massive limit one would place on themselvs simply based off an asumption.

In the end I have not messed around much with other character mods, but I do know of people that have done some wonky stuff client side. Granted I know this will never happen, but I enjoy talking about the topic, and if I had any control over it I would make it all or nothing and if it was enabled I would put everyone beside the pimary player char in a basic black robe or something. All-in-all I am always one for more options that provide players with more agency that allows them to enhance their own personal expereince by altering social elements they may find bothersome for whatever reason, within reason of course. Now this is not to say that I think certain glam is inherent bad or anything like that, I am frog suit player myself. I just know for personal expereince that anything can be used as a means to harass or bother another person, since I often mess around with my friends bothering others doing weird shit.

I know my stance can lead to some funky reductios.

What you say is true to a point. However blacklisting is to stop harassment, muting performances is because someone can huge troll with the instruments but just constantly spamming annoying tunes, and of course the language filter is a cause some people find cursing offensive. But glamour does not to any of those things, they just show an image of what a person wants their character to look like. If you in turn get in a weird then go and bother players its the persons doing not cause of the glamour they are in. You cannot harass people with your glamour alone. A gun doesn't shoot itself you know this. If someone is just standing around in a frog suit minding his own business, then he is not harassing anything and if someone feels harassed by them just being in that outfit, then they need professional help.

[Awha]

What you say is true to a point. However blacklisting is to stop harassment, muting performances is because someone can huge troll with the instruments but just constantly spamming annoying tunes, and of course the language filter is a cause some people find cursing offensive. But glamour does not to any of those things, they just show an image of what a person wants their character to look like. If you in turn get in a weird then go and bother players its the persons doing not cause of the glamour they are in. You cannot harass people with your glamour alone. A gun doesn't shoot itself you know this. If someone is just standing around in a frog suit minding his own business, then he is not harassing anything and if someone feels harassed by them just being in that outfit, then they need professional help.

Way I see it in the end it is not my place to say what a person finds bothersome, or as greifng since my standard differs greatly from others. If a person can have a better overall game experience due the added option of not being able to see certain glam, of course such options have to fall within reason which is the hard aspect. For example I got in my early WoW days someone told me to kill myself due to my poor play, I am sure another person may view that as harrassment, but I was thankful and viewed it as valuable criticism which gave me the kick in the ass I needed to look at guides to improve.

I get where you are coming from, but just like gun laws there is not one size fits all approach and people have largely differing views as to handle it because people have differing views as to what role the tool itself plays in situation. I am a fan of more options that enhance personal agency, People come from various walks of life, and as such I am not sure what may or may not trigger them so if their can be options that put more control in their hands to limit their triggers without them having to ask me to stop doing something then I am all for it. Which I do feel a feature like this falls under that line of thing,

I guess where we differ is I view each of those features as tools that provide players a means to avoid soical aspects that may find bothersome for whatever reason. Now I understand the contradiction here since I am saying not my place to to say what another person finds annoying, but as a whole I do not think a person should be annoyed by someone using dropping F bombs, words are just words in my eyes. While I do not agree with people that use the features I do not have to agree with them since at the core I can get behind the idea of someone taking steps to take control over the things that bother them instead of trying to police another person in game. I rather someone switch my glam off instead of asking me to change my glam for a cutscene -- which has happened to me before-- I laighed at them, but it could have been avoided if they could hide certain glam. I do overall think it would be a net postive in terms of overall enjoyment of the game for players, and I do think it worth limiting the enjoyment of those who enjoy knowing the vast majorty of players will see their outfit because the moding community is not that wide spread in this game.

I would love for people to see my body hair on my roe outside of streaming or screen shots but alas I cannot do that, but I still enjoy my body hair.

[Krotoan]

It is not that I think so, it is that I KNOW so. The one person was saying that they would like to add a person to a sort of blacklist and that would strip the glamour off to default gear. That would be more for the system to load up and remember. So depending on how much a person used it think of what that does.

As they've never actually posted how the system works I'm having trouble believing that you KNOW so. I can base my theories on the way that I know OTHER games work though. So likely your system gets some very small streams of data to tell it what to show: flags for where the character is and what they're doing that update pretty constantly and then data for what to show them wearing which really only need to be sent occasionally. The AMOUNT of data being sent for appearances would never really change, no matter the system. It would either be sending flags for whatever glamour they have or if the client had the flags for "default" it would use whatever default there was set OR if there was a glamour stripping option it would just use the actual gear data. The blacklist would also likely be client side as there would be no need for the server to care, instead of reading the glamour data it would simply use the appearance data for the gear they were actually wearing, which is sent anyway. Not a particularly large change in back and forth and not particularly stressful on the system since it'd be loading the same amount of appearance data. It's not like it's loading the glamour, then unloading, then loading the base gear.

Now the original posters idea COULD be worked with. There is a way to just make everyone into a default look and it would actually save you load time, fps so on. But that right there would completely wash their "my immersion" argument down the drain. Cause PWI did was when you toggled it everyone in game would look like the default starter of each race before they started customizing it. So idk about them but that sounds a lot more immersion breaking then seeing the occasional weird outfit.

I've already tackled the "immersion" arguments on both sides and would rather not go into this again.

[Dan4077]

As they've never actually posted how the system works I'm having trouble believing that you KNOW so. I can base my theories on the way that I know OTHER games work though. So likely your system gets some very small streams of data to tell it what to show: flags for where the character is and what they're doing that update pretty constantly and then data for what to show them wearing which really only need to be sent occasionally. The AMOUNT of data being sent for appearances would never really change, no matter the system. It would either be sending flags for whatever glamour they have or if the client had the flags for "default" it would use whatever default there was set OR if there was a glamour stripping option it would just use the actual gear data. The blacklist would also likely be client side as there would be no need for the server to care, instead of reading the glamour data it would simply use the appearance data for the gear they were actually wearing, which is sent anyway. Not a particularly large change in back and forth and not particularly stressful on the system since it'd be loading the same amount of appearance data. It's not like it's loading the glamour, then unloading, then loading the base gear.



I've already tackled the "immersion" arguments on both sides and would rather not go into this again.

I am not reading threw over a 1000 posts to find your argument so saying this gets you no where at all. You say it or don't, just because you made some argument to another doesn't make it automatically valid because you don't want to repeat yourself, that is ridiculous.

Yes and all those readings of "flags" as you like to put it and changes it takes PROCESSING POWER. Now depending on how they do it, and how it works it can either be less stressful or more depending on added features such as having to read threw individual blacklisted glamours like some were asking for. I said I KNOW because this is an un-debatable fact on how computers work and a ps4 is just a computer with a different operating system. Anything the server does whether its loading characters trees glamour w.e takes processing power. If you add on to those processes it will either effect it in some way better or not. I did not specify ANY kind of glam block option I just said that for certain ones people were asking for it would take a lot for lower systems if you could go around blocking individual peoples glamours and parts. Plus all of this depends on how the glam option works if it replaces the code for the amour you are wearing it will read it as the glamour anyway. Like you literally just claimed idk how the system works don't take a full loop and start talking like you know how the system works. Their glamour system could work in multiple ways.

[Krotoan]

I am not reading threw over a 1000 posts to find your argument so saying this gets you no where at all. You say it or don't, just because you made some argument to another doesn't make it automatically valid because you don't want to repeat yourself, that is ridiculous.

Considering I remember you joining in BEFORE I stated my piece I'm thinking you're just kinda cherrypicking things to respond to.. but the gist is:
Immersion is personal, it is not lore. If you are breaking my IMMERSION you are being incongruous with my own personal story and narrative I've made up in my mind. If you claim that something cannot possibly break that immersion you are claiming I don't know my own story. Claims of immersion breaking with odd/sexy/silly glamours are all valid and separate from LORE arguments. It's much easier to work a uniform for adventurers into a story than meeting someone in a pig head, bikini bottom and armored boots.

Yes and all those readings of "flags" as you like to put it and changes it takes PROCESSING POWER. Now depending on how they do it, and how it works it can either be less stressful or more depending on added features such as having to read threw individual blacklisted glamours like some were asking for. I said I KNOW because this is an un-debatable fact on how computers work and a ps4 is just a computer with a different operating system. Anything the server does whether its loading characters trees glamour w.e takes processing power. .
If you add on to those processes it will either effect it in some way better or not.

The added "processing" is minimal if the game works anything like most of the other MMO's out there if worst case scenario individual blacklists are used. There will be one more flag check if that person is on someones blacklist. However considering we both don't know for sure how the system works, using this argument isn't particularly compelling.

I did not specify ANY kind of glam block option I just said that for certain ones people were asking for it would take a lot for lower systems if you could go around blocking individual peoples glamours and parts. Plus all of this depends on how the glam option works if it replaces the code for the amour you are wearing it will read it as the glamour anyway. Like you literally just claimed idk how the system works don't take a full loop and start talking like you know how the system works. Their glamour system could work in multiple ways.

I literally stated that this was if they used standards that other games used. You were the one who said you "KNOW".

So if people are wearing actual gear for their role (not a glamour - real battle gear) that is a bikini or a dress then block that set from being seen? If I am understanding this correctly I would have to say a hard no. The devs spend a lot of time creating the gear they put in the game (both gear and glamour) and if people are just going to block whole sets so they don't have to see it? I'm sorry but I have to say at that point this game may not be for you (general you). I HATE that phrase. I really do, but seriously if regular gear is going to offend someone's sensibilities then I don't know why that person would even be playing this game.

For the hundreds of other aspects and pieces of gear that aren't weird/goofy/oversexed? I understand the sentiment but while glamouring is a lot of peoples "endgame" it is by no means everyones beat all end all, and everyone has personal tastes which may not align with even the developers (see male bunny suits) . We can choose what we wear and stay within those particular likes/dislikes and try and minimize the rest appearing on our screen.

Reading through many (not all) of theses comments, i can't help but think... We are living in a damn decedent time if you have so little stress in your life that another persons chosen glamour/ representation of their in game character is your biggest/ most pressing issue... Truly the importance of this subject and it's subsequent responses for it's inclusion are truly inspiring.

It's nobodies biggest issue and even in the context of this thread people who support it admit they've gone this far without it and continuing isn't particularly difficult either. And if you wanna talk about decadent remember you are playing a video game, frittering time, money, and electricity away on something that accomplishes next to nothing other than increasing dopamine flow.
This is nobodies "line in the sand" but it would be nice to have.

[Granyala]

We can choose what we wear and stay within those particular likes/dislikes and try and minimize the rest appearing on our screen.

Why are people so obsessed with the above?
I don't get it. I see so many offensive things in real life that are far more annoying than a dude hopping around in a bunny suit (which basically only makes me chuckle).

Where does this urge and logic of "I don't like this, I shouldn't have to see it!" come from?