(Spoilers)The rejoining kinda useless.

[Deusteele]

(Still our heros should go to a course about motivational speeches that Elidibus teaches...seeing how even crafters and gatherers wanted to suddenly go out and help people..like do you even know that this means fighting horrible monsters? That even trained soldiers can die easily too?)

I think this is a major part of Elidibus' plan. He knows not to throw down against the WoL. Trying to coerce major power into taking us on has bit them in the butt as well. So now he plans to throw pawns at us; hoping that either we'll be bogged down trying to save them from themselves, or that he can turn them against us. The former and he can turn his focus back to forcing a rejoining, the latter and he could stab us literally in the back during the fighting, if we wouldn't be taken out by death by a thousand-cuts.

[Edax]

Why would they not procreate naturally? We know from Emets story that they were not able to create new souls. And that they had a lifestream and an underworld. It makes sense that either that lifestream was naturally able to create more souls or all of it was just reborn again when a new life was born. Maybe there is a true god in that universe who creates souls. But Zodiark is no true god, he is a primal after all.
.

If their babies didn't have souls, then I imagine they wouldn't procreate. But I do think their creations did have souls otherwise how did they get their souls in the first place? They must at least have been able to create children with souls right? If they can do that they can potentially reincarnate the older souls via that method.

My problem with their plan is: The Ancient ones were sacrificed to fuel Zodiark to even be able to do all of the stuff. How would they even still exist? We see with Lahabrea and the Sahagin priest that souls can be used as a battery and I believe that is exactly what happened with the ancient ones. They dont exist anymore inside Zodiark, they were turned into energy to fuel him. Thus any soul that comes out of it if he can create souls would not be the old ancient one but a new one. Which kinda goes against what the Ascians wanted.

We don't know whose soul Emet sees in the Warrior of Light, but it's implied it was his friend who sacrificed themselves to summon Hydelean. The soul of that Ancient lived on, sundered.

[YianKutku]

We don't know whose soul Emet sees in the Warrior of Light, but it's implied it was his friend who sacrificed themselves to summon Hydelean. The soul of that Ancient lived on, sundered.

I still don't quite understand how Emet-Selch apparently could see our soul, but not Ardbert's, hanging around next to us most of the time. And yet, Hythlodaeus could see Ardbert's soul.

[QT_Melon]

I still don't quite understand how Emet-Selch apparently could see our soul, but not Ardbert's, hanging around next to us most of the time. And yet, Hythlodaeus could see Ardbert's soul.

Emet was second best it appears from the side story

"There is naught to congratulate─I merely filled a void. One which, I would remind you, only existed because you refused the honor."

"Come now, it went to the candidate best suited to the office. You find practical use for that which you see, while I enjoy the seeing for its own sake."

Emphasis mine

As he said these words, he glared daggers through his mask, but the threat─idle, as they both knew─served only to elicit a snort of amusement from the Chief of the Bureau of the Architect, his close friend Hythlodaeus. Attired in a black robe and a white mask, the man looked entirely unremarkable. Yet like Hades, he was eminently gifted in the ability to behold the Underworld. As a matter of fact, were it purely a question of vision, his was the keener of the two. Precious little escaped his eyes, which could discern essence and appearance as plainly as night and day. This made him amply qualified for the highest office of the Bureau of the Architect, the institution which oversaw the creation of concepts. And incurably smug.

Granted there is double meaning in there his observation skills are on point but I take it that he also is more tuned to seeing things where Hades may not immediately grasp.

There may be also the fact that Hythlo was a shade that could witness Ardbert and make the connection.

[Alleo]

I think this is a major part of Elidibus' plan. He knows not to throw down against the WoL. Trying to coerce major power into taking us on has bit them in the butt as well. So now he plans to throw pawns at us; hoping that either we'll be bogged down trying to save them from themselves, or that he can turn them against us. The former and he can turn his focus back to forcing a rejoining, the latter and he could stab us literally in the back during the fighting, if we wouldn't be taken out by death by a thousand-cuts.

My problem is that he then plans to keep us there for a long time for it to work. I mean these are starter adventurers. Even Ardbert and his groups had to go through many harsh quests to even become WoLs. I really have a hard time seeing how they would suddenly be able to get so powerful to even be of danger to us and what reason he would have to find to make them turn on us in the first place. After saving their world, bringing back the night, doing countless of more quests after that, telling the story of the WoLs and being friends with the exarch.

I just cant see something that would make sense and that would happen soon for them to turn on us. Of course in story Elidibus truly might plan for years. But we as players know that this cant happen. The WoL is also not stuck on the first and can go back to the source any time so anything he suddenly does there (since he kinda needs another calamity on the source too to even do another rejoining) can be stopped by us. I think that whatever his plan is we will stop it before it can really go off and because of his good talk-no-jutsu with the people we also can leave the shard behind without fearing for the peoples life.

If their babies didn't have souls, then I imagine they wouldn't procreate. But I do think their creations did have souls otherwise how did they get their souls in the first place? They must at least have been able to create children with souls right? If they can do that they can potentially reincarnate the older souls via that method.

The creations they did probably had no souls but why should their babies not have one? We know that there is a lifestream (they are able to see it, or at least Hades does) and that there is a underworld. So simply each time someone was pregnant one of the old souls came back from there and went into the new life. Or maybe whatever created the souls in the first place created new ones.

[Erendis]

If their babies didn't have souls, then I imagine they wouldn't procreate. But I do think their creations did have souls otherwise how did they get their souls in the first place? They must at least have been able to create children with souls right? If they can do that they can potentially reincarnate the older souls via that method.

Not sure why you are asuming their babies were made by creation magic. People on the Source and the First can make babies just fine without using it...

[Edax]

The Ascians call Zodiark "the will of the star," but whether he is in sooth is... arguable; and if the Ancients couldn't endow their creations with souls, why would a creation of theirs be able to?

Not sure why you are assuming their babies were made by creation magic. People on the Source and the First can make babies just fine without using it...

I was responding to the comment their creations did not have souls, not their creation magic. Presumably the Ancients could create children with souls, so why wouldn't Zodiark be able to do the same? Zodiark can rewrite the laws of reality, but he doesn't necessarily only rely on creation magic to do it, otherwise why wouldn't the Ancients just fix their own planet if creation magic was all that was needed to restore life to the planet? And if Zodiark restored life to the planet, presumably the beast races he created must have been able to house a soul, otherwise how did they end up with souls?

[Cilia]

I was responding to the comment their creations did not have souls, not their creation magic. Presumably the Ancients could create children with souls, so why wouldn't Zodiark be able to do the same? Zodiark can rewrite the laws of reality, but he doesn't necessarily only rely on creation magic to do it, otherwise why wouldn't the Ancients just fix their own planet if creation magic was all that was needed to restore life to the planet? And if Zodiark restored life to the planet, presumably the beast races he created must have been able to house a soul, otherwise how did they end up with souls?

This is getting pedantic.

The short story says, verbatim:

As Hades well knew, souls spontaneously manifested within creatures that were born in accordance with the laws of nature. It was a gift from the star itself, long held to be impossible to recreate. No artificial being, no matter how subtly sculpted in the image of nature, could come to possess a soul.

So naturally born children would have souls, but if someone were to use Creation magicks in an attempt to make a child, the end result would still be a meat puppet regardless of how exquisitely it was crafted.

That said the story also shows that, in very rare chances, it is possible for creations to gain souls - the story itself seems to concern itself with the original phoenix, there are also two beast races on the Source derived from Allagan-created slave races (Ixal and Ananta), and Alpha grows a soul after the Omega raids - but unless otherwise noted Ancient creation magicks cannot endow souls.

It's also unclear as to whether or not the current races existed before the Sundering or are a product of it. I'm personally not sold on the idea that Zodiark himself created races - only that those new lives were able to come into existence as a consequence of his intervention.

[Erendis]

I was responding to the comment their creations did not have souls, not their creation magic. Presumably the Ancients could create children with souls, so why wouldn't Zodiark be able to do the same? Zodiark can rewrite the laws of reality, but he doesn't necessarily only rely on creation magic to do it, otherwise why wouldn't the Ancients just fix their own planet if creation magic was all that was needed to restore life to the planet? And if Zodiark restored life to the planet, presumably the beast races he created must have been able to house a soul, otherwise how did they end up with souls?

You are just being obnoxous. Babies have nothing to do with creations...

[QT_Melon]

We don't know whose soul Emet sees in the Warrior of Light, but it's implied it was his friend who sacrificed themselves to summon Hydelean. The soul of that Ancient lived on, sundered.

This is incorrect. The friend was the DEFECTOR. The defector, in 5.2 is NOT Venat who became the vessel for Hydaelyn. It was mentioned that the defector had no presence during the summoning of Hydaelyn. (even IF we had -we'd be effectively gone BEFORE the sundering anyways..and 5.2 does tell you Venat wouldn't be "gone" but more that she'd be in the form she chose - ie Hydaelyn)

You are just being obnoxous. Babies have nothing to do with creations...

Well... to a degree it's also hitting on points of what Laws did Zodiark rewrite as a primal.

I'll agree that natural procreation and Creation magic ARE separate entities. The ability to distribute a soul at the time of birth is a planet thing - that our planet has been mentioned somewhere to be rich in aether?

The short of it theory wise - prior to the Final Days there were actually new souls that were from the breakdown of old souls in the Underworld. After Zodiark - we're all recycled "whole" souls.

From the short story, what I can gather is that souls eventually drift into the Lifrestream then plunge into the Underworld.

The sights that were reflected in his eyes, however, were a far cry from any seen by most men.

What he beheld was the aether that comprised all things, radiating life. From the depths of the land to the heights of the firmament, its light shone bright. Here and there, lives that had served their purpose drifted upon the current before suddenly plunging down unto the Underworld.

That he could behold these wonders was not a wonder in itself. Many were blessed with the sight. Yet very few indeed were as strong in the gift as him. As a man focuses his gaze upon the object of his interest, he needed but to direct his attention towards the aether to behold all the lives borne upon the currents. So acute was his vision, he could make out not only the soul─the heart of life─but also discern subtle differences in the hue of each, telling individual lives apart. And by virtue of this transcendent skill, he had often been likened to a denizen of the Underworld.

I think the most interesting part of the story are 2 things.

"Served its purpose" meaning it sounds like it had an end
Doesn't sound like you can just recognize a soul after it reincarnates if that was the case? Or it doesn't reincarnate as a whole? It's likely broken down to have broken down till it becomes a new soul?

Then you have the Ancients - at this point of time seem to be at the peak of their civilization. There isn't war and strife (likely anymore - I mean who knows in THEIR past) and their existence is biologically immortal. They can still have kids. In addition they can manipulate Aether to use in Creation Magic.

From that, and just looking at general studies on population with births and deaths - this Aether rich planet is probably becoming unbalanced in terms of souls returning to the Underworld.
The souls were used to having everlasting life. It wouldn't be surprising the drift of the soul that became the phoenix gave way to other souls wanting to continue their existence as beings...and maybe did something that created a sound...that caused things to go awry?

"There was an accident," Hythlodaeus began. "During the concept's examination, a drifting soul merged with it─a soul burdened with regret, judging by the being's behavior. It rages against the pull of the Underworld."

As he listened, Hades kept his gaze fixed on the creature, which flew about in a frenzy. No sooner would it dash itself against the wall in an explosion of broken feathers than it would heal itself and repeat the grisly feat. This self-destructive dance unfolded again and again, with the creature occasionally giving vent to its overflowing magical reserves─or fury, as it seemed to him─as fiery breath.

Witnessing the excruciating display, his thoughts poured forth unbidden from his lips. "Consumed by the fear of death, it thrashes blindly about. It will know only pain and suffering and inflict the same upon others. A pitiful existence."

That's a theory - as we still do not know for sure what caused the sound - but definitely during that time the phoenix was a sign of things going "off script" and giving ideas to fix it with the use of Primals ironically (from what it looks like in how Zodiark and Hydaelyn were created with hearts).

It was previously mentioned/theorized the Lifestream breaks up the soul after death. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post5048735

Yet, Zodiark who rewrote the laws is a PRIMAL. Yet people sacrificed themselves so Zodiark can create NEW life.

New life = new souls? I don't think that's what happened. If the planet was effectively dead - it sounds like the cycle didn't start anymore - lifestream breaks things down so that new life can be populated. No new bodies to house the souls. Zodiark may have created a "River" so that the "lifestream" can flow again. Those that sacrificed prior to Zodiark was broken down to the old system laws. Zodiark had to reconnect the pathways so the lifestream flows again.

I think somewhere in there it was realized you can't have the same longevity going on - so you create beings with a finite lifespan since it seems new souls can't be formed from the bits and created again - so the souls are now in a reincarnation state?

This looks like where the dissent happened vessels and state of being - in terms of souls. Do you keep the system where lesser vessels are created for shorter lifespans so they can return to the lifestream in the new cycle, or do you bring back the old Ancients with long lifespans even though it may be disrupting the balance of vessels able to house souls?