(Spoilers)The rejoining kinda useless.

[Alleo]

@OP: I mean we know now that they never planned to let the unsundered souls live. They told us that they would sacrifice every life after the rejoinings so of course it does not matter if they are not the same because they are just there as fuel for Zodiark to get those souls inside of him back. (Which is why Emets talk about it being fine to kill us because we are not "real" rangs hollow since he still would sacrifice anyone even when complete thus alive)

Their plans are also bad if they need all shards because they kinda messed up the 13th. (And nearly messed up the first shard too) Honestly I see this as a good show how tempered they are. No matter what they will continue with their plans because that is the will of Zodiark. Even if it makes no sense anymore.

[Alleo]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but it looks like the implication thus far is that the Echo is not inherently a power with "anti-temper" properties like we had thought, but that since the sundering, hydaelyn seems to immediately temper people who awaken their Echo, like tuning into a looped transmission of her voice. Beings already tempered cannot be tempered by other primals.

We dont know that because we have no clear numbers on who got the echo and who heard Hydealyns voice. We do know from story that not everyone that has the echo automatically also knows about Hydealyn and Elidibus at least claims that many now got the echo but seemingly only two of those went on adventure.

Elidibus in that same scene also says that the echo is just a fraction of the ancients power that awakens because of the old memories. I guess having that power is just a great protection because of a better barrier for the souls and that WoLs just have more blessings on top of that.

I believe the idea was that Zodiark, the god that can rewrite the laws of reality, would fully restore the dead.

Yeah but at that point they were already tempered so I guess that idea might have come from Zodiark himself. We do know now thanks to Venat that Zodiark was (even after rewriting the laws) not the end solution to it all. That seemingly even he wont be able to stop the calamity from happening again. I guess Venat and the others might have found the problem itself and saw that Zodiark only put a rug on it and it will break out again. Which means that he is far from perfect. (Which makes sense since how would beings with flaws be able to create something perfect?) Maybe this is why the split happens. Maybe this was the only solution that would put an end to the sound but of course also an end to their lifes as it once was (which is why they knew that a part of their society would hate them for it) .

I presume the Ancients could endow their creations with souls, otherwise how would they procreate? They had children with souls. If they can't procreate then who was their creator? I imagine the trick Zodiark would have to pull is being able to format the already existing soul into a previous incarnation. Rewriting the laws of reality might mean manipulating the souls in the Lifestream? -shrug-

Why would they not procreate naturally? We know from Emets story that they were not able to create new souls. And that they had a lifestream and an underworld. It makes sense that either that lifestream was naturally able to create more souls or all of it was just reborn again when a new life was born. Maybe there is a true god in that universe who creates souls. But Zodiark is no true god, he is a primal after all.

My problem with their plan is: The Ancient ones were sacrificed to fuel Zodiark to even be able to do all of the stuff. How would they even still exist? We see with Lahabrea and the Sahagin priest that souls can be used as a battery and I believe that is exactly what happened with the ancient ones. They dont exist anymore inside Zodiark, they were turned into energy to fuel him. Thus any soul that comes out of it if he can create souls would not be the old ancient one but a new one. Which kinda goes against what the Ascians wanted.

[Bhearil]

By the way its been stated that a LOT of the crowd heard the "Hear, Feel, Think" since the Crystal Excarch is having troubles to keep running the Crystarium because so many people are leaving (which means a considerable % of the Crystarium got the gift or at the very least heard the Hydaelyn's voice to endanger Crystarium functionality). The 2 guards turned adventurers are just the visible face of that group

[Rannie]

I'm thinking this whole mix up with the souls is in the wording some are using. Even then while some of the Ancients were able to get a glimpse of the afterlife even use some of its power it's not entirely stated that they could use the souls to imbue artificial creations with it.

Throughout the ages, this realm has been called many names, but in the beginning it was known as the Underworld─the place to which departed souls returned. As water flows to the sea and rises to the sky before raining upon the land once more, the Underworld was a fundamental part of the circle of life. And for this reason, it was regarded at once with familiarity and reverence by men, who, despite their godlike powers, could not claim dominion over it. Wise though they were, they could catch only fleeting glimpses of the realm, channel but a sliver of its power, and do naught to control its ceaseless flow.

Also only the planet could and can give the gift of a soul.

Through their mastery of creation magicks, men could weave anything into existence. Anything they could imagine, they could bring forth─anything, that is, except a soul. As Hades well knew, souls spontaneously manifested within creatures that were born in accordance with the laws of nature. It was a gift from the star itself, long held to be impossible to recreate. No artificial being, no matter how subtly sculpted in the image of nature, could come to possess a soul. Such creations occupied a separate classification known as arcane entities.

Though at this point in time we have seen an artificial life be blessed with a new born soul if what I gleaned the whole thing about Alpha correctly, however that happened after the sundering and all the laws were rewritten.

[Enkidoh]

Also, why is everyone always stating that the Ancients were immortal beings, where as the shades in Amaurot outright prove that they were very much otherwise?

If the Amaurot reconstruction is correct, then Ancients were not immortal, they were mortals that procreated normally, in other words, they had children which grew into adults and lived normal lives with finite lifespans - the player and the Scions are mistaken for children by them after all when first encountering an Amaurotine shade (who then proceeds to sincerely ask them "did you lose your mummy?" (paraphrased). Wandering the city and speaking to other shades the player is basically continued to be mistaken for a child and told to "keep at your studies and eventually you too will one day grow into an accomplished Amaurot citizen!"

Another shade mentions that she was trying to create a robe but got distracted by the sight of a group of children and so created child-sized robes that were no good for her. And the npcs in the lobby of the Academia Aynder pretty much insinuate that children often visit the institution on field trips.

And the big kicker? An Amaurotine shade when explaining about Creation magic states that even a newborn baby is capable of Creation magic, which, overlooking the mindscrew of that idea, pretty conclusively shows that children were being born to replace life that was ending naturally. To say nothing of the vision of the Terminus we got from the Amaurot dungeon showed Ancients being slaughtered left, right and centre by the apocalyptic event, their bodies lying lifelessly throughout the ruined city.

All showing that the Ancients were very much mortals just like the current races who had children and lived mortal lives with a finite limit.

[QT_Melon]

Though at this point in time we have seen an artificial life be blessed with a new born soul if what I gleaned the whole thing about Alpha correctly, however that happened after the sundering and all the laws were rewritten.

Keep reading. The tale you're reading is his conversation with Hythlodaeus. Which both were suited for office due to their rather unique ability to read the color of souls. Apparently Hythlo was better at it.

Yet like Hades, he was eminently gifted in the ability to behold the Underworld. As a matter of fact, were it purely a question of vision, his was the keener of the two. Precious little escaped his eyes, which could discern essence and appearance as plainly as night and day. This made him amply qualified for the highest office of the Bureau of the Architect

Hythlo had an issue that was apparently happening BEFORE the Final Days where a pheonix or bird was created - which gave you the entry you're reading now.

I have a suspicion that souls joining creation magic may have been the either (and) catalyst for (summoning) Primals/Final Days (may have to do with the sound) idea of summoning a primal to save themselves from it since primals can have "pilots"

Also, why is everyone always stating that the Ancients were immortal beings, where as the shades in Amaurot outright prove that they were very much otherwise?

Because in this case they're talking about their lifespans which are biologically immortal. This is later addressed when Emet in the tales - loses his son to illness when he's in the Garlean Empire.

In the end, they were all just malformed creatures. Feeble, frail, and foolish. Thrashing blindly about in their fleeting, fragmented lives, repeating the same mistakes over and over again. Never could they replace his brethren. Yet in spite of himself, when he cradled the newborn in his arms and stroked that downy hair, he could not help but hope. For what, he could not be certain, but he hoped nonetheless. It made little difference in the end, for his son had succumbed to some absurd illness and returned to the Underworld long before his time. Not without leaving behind a legacy, however─a living, breathing, and ever-present reminder of that momentary lapse.

[Erendis]

Also, why is everyone always stating that the Ancients were immortal beings, where as the shades in Amaurot outright prove that they were very much otherwise?

I assumed their immortality was same as Tolkien's elves.

[Rannie]

Keep reading. The tale you're reading is his conversation with Hythlodaeus. Which both were suited for office due to their rather unique ability to read the color of souls. Apparently Hythlo was better at it.



Hythlo had an issue that was apparently happening BEFORE the Final Days where a pheonix or bird was created - which gave you the entry you're reading now.

I have a suspicion that souls joining creation magic may have been the either (and) catalyst for (summoning) Primals/Final Days (may have to do with the sound) idea of summoning a primal to save themselves from it since primals can have "pilots"




Because in this case they're talking about their lifespans which are biologically immortal. This is later addressed when Emet in the tales - loses his son to illness when he's in the Garlean Empire.

I have read the whole thing. That incident in which you were speaking of was not due to them imbuing an artificial life with a soul

Hythlodaeus stretched out a hand to the enormous gate that stood before them. Soundlessly, the towering doors swung open...and Hades found himself wincing at the ear-rending cry that emanated from within. Furrowing his brow, he stepped across the threshold to be greeted with the sight of a magnificent bird, its plumes fairly afire, circling high in the vaulted hall. Having marked the creature's undeniable beauty, it took him but another moment to identify the problem─an unmistakable light shining in its heart. His breath caught in his throat.

"A*soul... How?"

Through their mastery of creation magicks, men could weave anything into existence. Anything they could imagine, they could bring forth─anything, that is, except a soul. As Hades well knew, souls spontaneously manifested within creatures that were born in accordance with the laws of nature. It was a gift from the star itself, long held to be impossible to recreate. No artificial being, no matter how subtly sculpted in the image of nature, could come to possess a soul. Such creations occupied a separate classification known as arcane entities.

"There was an accident," Hythlodaeus began. "During the concept's examination, a drifting soul merged with it─a soul burdened with regret, judging by the being's behavior. It rages against the pull of the Underworld."

It was due to a drifting soul merging of it's own accord as an accident there is still no proof that they themselves could do it or could not do it. And still the only artificial life that we know of that had a new born soul blossom into it was Alpha. Which was after the summoning. Plus it also goes on where Emet does something to the bird but it never says exactly what happened. He drew on the power if the underworld then he was woken up.

[QT_Melon]

It was due to a drifting soul merging of it's own accord as an accident there is still no proof that they themselves could do it or could not do it. And still the only artificial life that we know of that had a new born soul blossom into it was Alpha.

The whole dialog with Hydaelyn and Venat - see the earlier page. Venat says they're not gone from this world. This leads to evidence of adding their souls to artificial beings - thus Primals.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post5308178

It's possible that the intent of Venat was to prevent Primal further primal summoning. It would help account for the memory wipes weaker beings and "condemning" the race to suffering. It's likely she didn't account for people to escape unsundered. However, even if the Ascians weren't around there's no telling that primals wouldn't be summoned. Yes the Ascians had a hand in escalating events no doubt, but for the most part they play poisoning the well if the intents and doubts were already there and for some cases could have been dismissed.

The thing to keep in mind however, is the soul is still there but possibly not the same "identity". The phoenix in said story didn't suddenly gain speech and have an intelligent conversation about its plight.

Also forgot to add on, I'm not sure Alpha is a good case to make as his origins are other worldly, and not created from creation magic of our realm. If anything, I feel Alpha is the Pinocchio story at most. That's not to say his soul won't have relevance later.

[Alleo]

By the way its been stated that a LOT of the crowd heard the "Hear, Feel, Think" since the Crystal Excarch is having troubles to keep running the Crystarium because so many people are leaving (which means a considerable % of the Crystarium got the gift or at the very least heard the Hydaelyn's voice to endanger Crystarium functionality). The 2 guards turned adventurers are just the visible face of that group

Was it because of the voice? Because even before the starshower people were there wanting to go. It could simply be that it was because of Ardbert speech itself, saying that they were choosen because they saw the star shower. Elidibus himself only says that some have the echo now, there is no direct statement how many heard her voice. In the end even with the star shower only two left.

(Still our heros should go to a course about motivational speeches that Elidibus teaches...seeing how even crafters and gatherers wanted to suddenly go out and help people..like do you even know that this means fighting horrible monsters? That even trained soldiers can die easily too?)

Also, why is everyone always stating that the Ancients were immortal beings, where as the shades in Amaurot outright prove that they were very much otherwise?

Even if they were not immortal they seemingly lived long lives. One point why Emet Selch looks down on our races is because we get old so fast. Seeing how that includes Viera that can be around 300 years old. It makes sense that Ancients ones have long livespans. I mean the elder dragons that were already in eggs who arrived from outside the star seemingly are getting pretty old too.