(Spoilers)The rejoining kinda useless.

[Snugglez]

What I don't get is how the Ascians were actually tempered by Zodiark if they all possess the Echo.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but it looks like the implication thus far is that the Echo is not inherently a power with "anti-temper" properties like we had thought, but that since the sundering, hydaelyn seems to immediately temper people who awaken their Echo, like tuning into a looped transmission of her voice. Beings already tempered cannot be tempered by other primals.

[Vyrerus]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but it looks like the implication thus far is that the Echo is not inherently a power with "anti-temper" properties like we had thought, but that since the sundering, hydaelyn seems to immediately temper people who awaken their Echo, like tuning into a looped transmission of her voice. Beings already tempered cannot be tempered by other primals.

Jury's out on the one, honestly. The Resonant aren't shown to be touched by Hydaelyn, yet they do have anti-tempering power.

[TheMightyMollusk]

Arenvald doesn't seem to have Hydaelyns's Blessing, but he's immune to Lakshmi's tempering attempts. It's more that the Echo is a set of loosely defined plot powers, with resistance to tempering as a baseline ability tied to it.

[LineageRazor]

In the view of all this, I still feel the Ascians are just blinded by their memories about their own culture but do not take notice of the issues they also had as well since they see their life as the perfect life.

Yeah, I think it's highly likely that Emet's (and probably the other Asicans', too) view of Amaraut is one through rose-colored nostalgia goggles. While the society very likely was quite advanced magically, technologically, socially, and morally, there have been a lot of hints that it wasn't the perfect utopia Emet remembers.

The recordings of Venat and the dissenters provided probably the biggest such hint, when they discuss the need to create Hydaelyn. They remark that Zodiark is only a stopgap measure, that Zodiark alone wasn't enough to forestall their doom indefinitely. They also remarked that they'd brought their concerns to the Convocation, and been rebuffed. It's likely that the Convocation members were willfully ignoring some crucial flaw in their plan - possibly because being Tempered by Zodiark was affecting their judgment, but more likely due to that good ol' Ascian arrogance we've become so familiar with.

Emet clearly remembers the old world as a perfect one. The flaws in it outright confound him - he has no idea where the Sound came from, or why, and he regards the Dissenters and their summoning of Hydaelyn to be a completely inexplicable betrayal. As far as he's concerned, everything will be perfect again, once they put everything back EXACTLY the way it was - and there's no room in his mind for the possibility that putting it back exactly the way it was will put those inexplicable flaws back, too.

It's hard to say if Elidibus has a similar mindset, and Lahabrea is so cray-cray it's difficult to say for certain what his motivations were. Emet, though, provided the clearest window for us into the past, so it's important to remember that the window in that glass is mighty pink!

[QT_Melon]

Well one of the flaws was the very fact souls were combining to creation magic instead of returning to the underworld.

[Edax]

Heyo guys

I have thought about how the ascians want to rejoin the shards with the source and the motive behind it is understandable but honestly its pretty useless.

Basically even if they rejoined all the shards, the people wouldn't be the same as on the unsundered world.They would end up having alot of personal aether and the other stuff the ancients were capable of and maybe the memories but obviously not the same people.

Not to mention most of them are getting sacrificed to crystal daddy zodiark anyway to kinda revive the ancients that were used for the summoning of zodiark.

I believe the idea was that Zodiark, the god that can rewrite the laws of reality, would fully restore the dead.

[RyuDragnier]

Arenvald doesn't seem to have Hydaelyns's Blessing, but he's immune to Lakshmi's tempering attempts. It's more that the Echo is a set of loosely defined plot powers, with resistance to tempering as a baseline ability tied to it.

I think the Echo has a limit to what it can protect against, in terms of Tempering. Most primal fights are over in a manner of minutes for us in real time, which may be hours for ingame time (depending on whether or not they consider time flowing during trials to be normal time or not). No primal has lasted longer than that, and no Elder Primal has tried to influence us over a longer period of time. Rather than loosely defined, the Echo has merely not been pushed enough when it comes to being tempered.

[Cilia]

I believe the idea was that Zodiark, the god that can rewrite the laws of reality, would fully restore the dead.

Yes, but Through His Eyes states that one of the few things the Ancients were unable to do is endow their creations with souls.

Zodiark may have been created to be "the will of the star," capable of rewriting the laws of reality... but that's what his creators wanted him to be, and as we know primals aren't the real deal (i.e. Shiva is not a recreation of Saint Shiva as Ysayle intended; she's just what Ysayle believed Saint Shiva was / is like). The Ascians call Zodiark "the will of the star," but whether he is in sooth is... arguable; and if the Ancients couldn't endow their creations with souls, why would a creation of theirs be able to?

I think the Echo has a limit to what it can protect against, in terms of Tempering. Most primal fights are over in a manner of minutes for us in real time, which may be hours for ingame time (depending on whether or not they consider time flowing during trials to be normal time or not). No primal has lasted longer than that, and no Elder Primal has tried to influence us over a longer period of time. Rather than loosely defined, the Echo has merely not been pushed enough when it comes to being tempered.

Zenos conjectures that the Echo doesn't immunize people to tempering, but that it strengthens one's ego so as to withstand a contest of wills with primals.

This is somewhat supported by new information from Shadowbringers; talking to Emet-Selch at one point has him admit that he and the other Ascians are tempered by Zodiark and were when they summoned him because his power was simply too immense. If that's the case it would simply take a powerful enough primal; the ones we see summoned are simply too weak to overcome the Echo. (Shiva is able to overcome Ryne's will when she channels her in E8, though Ryne is able to avoid being tempered and just ends up as an out of control primal.)

[Edax]

Yes, but Through His Eyes states that one of the few things the Ancients were unable to do is endow their creations with souls.

Zodiark may have been created to be "the will of the star," capable of rewriting the laws of reality... but that's what his creators wanted him to be, and as we know primals aren't the real deal (i.e. Shiva is not a recreation of Saint Shiva as Ysayle intended; she's just what Ysayle believed Saint Shiva was / is like). The Ascians call Zodiark "the will of the star," but whether he is in sooth is... arguable; and if the Ancients couldn't endow their creations with souls, why would a creation of theirs be able to?

I presume the Ancients could endow their creations with souls, otherwise how would they procreate? They had children with souls. If they can't procreate then who was their creator? I imagine the trick Zodiark would have to pull is being able to format the already existing soul into a previous incarnation. Rewriting the laws of reality might mean manipulating the souls in the Lifestream? -shrug-

[TheMightyMollusk]

I presume the Ancients could endow their creations with souls, otherwise how would they procreate? They had children with souls. If they can't procreate then who was their creator? I imagine the trick Zodiark would have to pull is being able to format the already existing soul into a previous incarnation. Rewriting the laws of reality might mean manipulating the souls in the Lifestream? -shrug-

Why would they need to use their creation magics to procreate? I don't recall anything stating that they couldn't do it the more traditional way.