Dark Knight - I Used To Love You

[shao32]

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Idk where you get that ppl praise DA spam, more like they praise DA on HW days but well, if we compare DA spam, an oGCD that it's weaved betwen GCD aka making you press way more diferent buttoms on the same period of time compared to the mindless GCD spam without nothing in middle like it's inner delirium windows then yeah DA was way better that this and abyssal drain never reach the amount of spam that delirium granst for resource limitations, at much you get 3 DA+ abyssal drains wich it's way less spamy and was way more rewarding that quietus spam, quietus feel way better in the past and now it's boring and unrewarding to use.

not every job need to be baby proof, there is ppl that loves challenges and we have a wide variety of jobs to please all the customers needs, DRK was the hardest tank to master yes and what? thats fun, thats a lot of fun for some kind of players, DRK was to beautiful to master in the past and his lack of utility kill him on the high end but the job was present on most world first because it was a fun job to play and thats the most important thing on a game, there is no need to make everything brainless, for that don't add more jobs bcs it's stupid, just add skins to PLD and WAR and move on.

sole survivor was usefull on dungeons before the buff, free resources on big pulls, dark passenger was always useful on the same scenarios since was our aoe nuke.

delirium on dungeons offer more MP that quietus with blood price, blood weapon + quietus was better if you have the skill to manage the job off tank stance.

plunge was used as any oGCD, nothing new since DRG and MNK always do that since the begining.

CaS was never a dps loss since it's an oGCD, it was only a less DPS gain if you miss it use it with DA, a dps loss will be never use the skill.

bloodweapon and blood price gated behind grit was a questionable practice but that was a problem of grit himself like PLD stances not bloodweapon, and from my personal experience if you played properly DRK the aggro was never a problem specially since off tank stance you generate way more MP and you could always use DA + power slash to keep the pace, any DPS with skill enough to rip your agro would know how to use his agroo dump skills, if you wasn't able to keep the pace then you was terrible undergeard or doing everything wrong.

the difficulty of the job was fine, it wasn't even harder when you get use to it from my own perspective, DRK wasn't close the most harder job of the game, just one of the most busy and was a lot of fun to play on high end content.

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if we compared old aoe rotation where you play with your shiled to generate resources for quietus to generate MP for abyssal drain, DA and TBN to the current eternal 1-2 ocasional 3 waiting the quietus spam the difference it's very noticeable, current aoe rotation it's way more simple and there is nothing to manage compared to the resource management we use to have, it change a lot in fact, AD never was a spam per se since was pretty limited with the resource limits and management if you wanted to keep the rotation on check and since the self heals was pretty powerful it's not what i use to love hos old AOE rotation, AD was more rewarding to use aesthetically that quietus and quietus use to feels usefull compared to now, current rotations feels to easy and lame and the hard part for calling it something it's just use TBN and broke it.

i disagree with the second part complety, i personally don't hate inner delirium spam bcs it's feel like an outdated mechanic or something like that, i hate it bcs it's a WAR mechanic, DRK was historically in this game a sustained damage job constantly working on his resources to keep his numbers up something unique and fun to play around, and now DRK has complety lost that part of his identity to become a WAR clone, they don't even have a unique burst window wich make it worse, i personally accept this kind of mechanic on a job or 2 bcs it's his personal flow and since i don't like it i accept it for those who play that job and have fun with that, but now this mechanic start to spread like a wildfire betwen the jobs this expansion for some reason, now DRK and MCH, healers plaged with 1 spell spam and probably tomorrow GNB will be cursed with this nonesense too, it's annoying bcs not everyone love this stupid spam fest and at the same time they dont copy paste enochian or blood of dragoon mechanic to other casters/melees so they should stop spreading this on the tanks, whats the reason to have 4 tanks it's all of them end having the same generic rotation with minuscule variations? delete 2 of them and port his aesthetics to the 2 originals as a optional perk and stop pretending we have something we don't.

complety missundestand the post, my apologize.

[TouchandFeel]

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Um ... you basically just kept TBN on cooldown like you do now, spit out a Quietus when you had 50+ Blood the same as now and the rest was mostly DA+AD spam. It wasn't complex and was unarguably repetitive. Now, you are right that what we currently have is also not complex and very repetitive, but a boring AoE rotation is not limited to DRK and is a different topic unto itself.
The most consistent praise that I have seen for the old DA+AD spam was the massive heals and how godly it made players feel, which I will agree was true. You felt super powerful because it was completely over-powered. Take that aspect away and players would not feel the same about it. It's a fine and often emotionally blurred line between being "too simple and boring" and being "more work for less or equal results".

As for "I hate it because it's a WAR ability", really not so much. PLD technically had the mechanic first. So why don't you hate Inner Release and Delirium for being Requiescat+Holy Spirit clones? Why don't you hate Bow Shock for being a Circle of Scorn clone? I could go on ad naseum since so many abilities and mechanics between jobs are essentially cloned or variations of each other.
Pointing to just one example of this pattern and saying that you hate it because it is just like another ability is superficial at best and only touches on a very shallow "what" instead of actually contemplating the "whys" of it all. While it is justifiable to want unique mechanics and game-play, you need to actually provide sound justifications and reasoning otherwise it just comes across as reactionary and not very thought out.

So you hate the spam-burst mechanics, that's fine and a perfectly valid opinion but it is just that an opinion and not the reasoning to validate said opinion. You need to put forth an argument as to why spam-burst mechanics are bad.
That's what I tried to do. You don't have to agree with my assessment but I at least put thought into presenting an argument and backed it up with reasoning.
It also seems like you didn't quite understand my argument, as I was arguing as well that the single ability spam-burst mechanics are at this point in the game bad. I just looked beyond my current feelings on the matter, detached it from any specific job and looked at the mechanic itself since complaints are not limited just to DRK, took into account that they previously were considered by many players to be fun and enjoyable and yet now they are seen as being lame and boring. Basically just trying to take a few steps back, take an objective viewpoint and look for an evolving pattern in the mechanics and the subsequent player reception of them. That's how I came up with my hypothesis on why players currently feel the way they do about spam-burst mechanics.

So a little TLDR for that to make it easier to understand ...
- Spamming a single button for your burst is mechanically simplistic, which can quickly become not engaging.
- We the players likely tolerated it before because it was super powerful and relatively new in regards to mechanics and having such strongly defined burst periods.
- It's no longer new and so the shiny of it all has worn off and we see it better for its simplicity and are underwhelmed.
- Some jobs like PLD got an extra layer of complexity added to their spam to make it feel different while others were stuck with the same old thing (WAR) or just got the boring old version (DRK).
- The tanks that most depend on their burst periods for active engagement in their offenses got saddled with the more simple burst mechanics.

As you can see, I never argued for the simplistic spam-burst mechanics that we currently have for WAR and DRK. I argued directly against it, saying that those jobs should have more complex burst mechanics than either PLD or GNB due to their reliance on burst for offensive game-play and being more light on rotation mechanics.
I think if you slowed down a bit and didn't just react emotionally, you'd probably see that we are and have been arguing for essentially the same thing if not something similar.

Lastly, we shouldn't forget that one of, if not the most brought up complaint for DRK previously was its lack of proper burst damage. Could the devs have implemented it better? Most definitely, but lets not lie to ourselves that "keeping the DRK identity" of being sustained damage was something that was asked for when the exact opposite was the reality. Burst phases on tanks that sync with raid buffs are a thing and aren't going anywhere unless they completely change the combat design in the game, they just need to better implement them for the different jobs.

[shao32]

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well i will explain my self better then, why i dislike so much the spam mechanics? for many reasons.

-to simple mechanically specially if doesn't have oGCD involved making it tedious and boring.
-aesthetically lame, forcing me to see the same animation several times in a row it's not only antinatural for me, strategically speaking nobody will hit the same spot the same time doing the same move several times in a row, granted it's a videogame but thats why it's bother me.
-so many jobs with the same stuff, small variations doesnt change it's the same thing over and over again.
-i can't rely on muscle memory for this and i tryed but i have to constantly count the amount of hits im doing wich i find pretty annoying for both mentally and muscle memory since i could end pushing the same button more than necesary.

why WAR and no PLD? PLD have a casted version of this at the begining, gameplay wise use to feel way diferent for me and from the begining WAR have the 5-6 fell cleave spam wich wasn't pretty diferent of what they get at the end, the spam culture begins on SB and WAR started with the weaponskills while PLD was spells, why botther me more is DRK lose a unique mechanic to learn this and we get a exact copy of inner release not requiem cast. DRK need a burst? yes no? what really bother me this expansion is losing complety the sustain from the job, we pass from having bloodweapon for 15s every 40s (having a efective downtime of 30s, 24s after delirium) to 10s of buff every 60s with a efective downtime of 50s wich it's huge without counting the masive concentration of all your oGCD under bloodweapon window leaving the entire downtime with nothing to do excep salted earth.

about the last part im not reacting emotionally, this is pretty old for me, i was busy on discord at the same time looks like i missunderstand you so my apologize, big walls of text doesn't help much under that situation specially when english is not my first language, i will try to don't be busy next time.

[TouchandFeel]

-to simple mechanically specially if doesn't have oGCD involved making it tedious and boring.

I agree and that is basically what I was saying, that spam-burst mechanics that having you pressing the same button a bunch of times in a row are too simplistic and therefore boring.
As for the oGCD part, I think that depends somewhat. For a job like GNB that is very much about a set rotation, a set burst rotation that includes a specified combination of GCD and oGCD attacks works. For a job like DRK, I personally feel like leaving it more free-form where you should be weaving oGCDs between every GCD but requires some level of planning and resource management makes more sense to me.

-aesthetically lame, forcing me to see the same animation several times in a row it's not only antinatural for me, strategically speaking nobody will hit the same spot the same time doing the same move several times in a row, granted it's a videogame but thats why it's bother me.

I agree. The same animation being repeated one after another a bunch tends to look bad and can be a tad immersion breaking. It's a complaint that I have seen quite a bit, especially on the Japanese tank forums. It's something that I keep in mind when thinking of burst period design and an issue that I have tried to address in some of my Delerium rework suggestions, including my most recent one.

-so many jobs with the same stuff, small variations doesnt change it's the same thing over and over again.

I agree that the devs have gone a bit too far with the spam-burst mechanic on tanks. I am fine to a point with it and I think that with the combat design that all tanks should have their burst periods, but there has to be enough variation to make them not feel the same. I think they did an okay job with the Requiescat+Holy Spirit+Confiteor spam-burst, changing it up just enough that it feels fairly different. However like I said earlier, I think that for WAR and DRK they need to make the burst mechanics even more complex than that for all the reasons I went over already.

-i can't rely on muscle memory for this and i tryed but i have to constantly count the amount of hits im doing wich i find pretty annoying for both mentally and muscle memory since i could end pushing the same button more than necesary.

That's interesting, I personally find that I don't need any muscle memory for Delirium. I just spam the ability as much as I can during the duration while weaving oGCDs and as soon as I see the buff drop off I go back to my regular rotation. I don't even really think about the spam and just do it. I guess that could be chalked up to being a sort of "muscle memory" but it definitely feels more "thoughtless" than even cycling through my basic combo using muscle-memory.

See we are more in agreement than you may have initially realized

I also know that English is not your first language and I in no way fault you for it. Honestly overall I would say that your English is very good for not being a native speaker. I have seen many Americans that have English as their first language that are far worse at it than you are.
I will also not deny that I can speak and write in a manner that I like to think of as more detailed and in-depth, others may just regard it as being "overly wordy". That's no fault of yours and I can definitely see how it could be especially difficult for a non-native English speaker.

The main thing that I was alluding to is a habit that I see many people fall into on the internet, where people immediately assume and take the position of "you're wrong" with other people and speak or respond to them in that way which tends to not come across very well.
This isn't just you, it very common on the forums and you don't always respond to people like that, I just felt in this instance that your response was a bit like that.
But no harm, no foul. You realized you may have been distracted and rushed judgement, and openly admitted it which is admirable and better than many I have encountered.

[shao32]

That's interesting, I personally find that I don't need any muscle memory for Delirium. I just spam the ability as much as I can during the duration while weaving oGCDs and as soon as I see the buff drop off I go back to my regular rotation. I don't even really think about the spam and just do it. I guess that could be chalked up to being a sort of "muscle memory" but it definitely feels more "thoughtless" than even cycling through my basic combo using muscle-memory.

yeah i don't mean that inner delirium needs muscle memory, it's more about how you can't rely on it and since i can't depend of my muscle memory to dealt with it, I have to count the animations to keep the track of on what bloodspiller i am to don't waste GCD time by accident wich i find repetitive and pretty annoying for my finger and my mind having to watch the same again and again and again. i respect the ones who love that but is not for me saddly, the only version of inner spam i tolerate is the MCH one bcs it's way more faster, the animation is not bad since it's a gun and im weaving 1 of the 2 diferent oGCD in middle constantly witch means way more visual variation, but mostly the speed bcs it's comparable to use 3 normal GCD and still im kinda ugh against it despite i love how the MCH flows right now.

See we are more in agreement than you may have initially realized

I also know that English is not your first language and I in no way fault you for it. Honestly overall I would say that your English is very good for not being a native speaker. I have seen many Americans that have English as their first language that are far worse at it than you are.
I will also not deny that I can speak and write in a manner that I like to think of as more detailed and in-depth, others may just regard it as being "overly wordy". That's no fault of yours and I can definitely see how it could be especially difficult for a non-native English speaker.

The main thing that I was alluding to is a habit that I see many people fall into on the internet, where people immediately assume and take the position of "you're wrong" with other people and speak or respond to them in that way which tends to not come across very well.
This isn't just you, it very common on the forums and you don't always respond to people like that, I just felt in this instance that your response was a bit like that.
But no harm, no foul. You realized you may have been distracted and rushed judgement, and openly admitted it which is admirable and better than many I have encountered.

I appreciate you understanding ^^