Dark Knight - I Used To Love You

[PeacefulEdge]

Yawn, Yet another TheRealQuah comment undermining people. We do really need a new thread about DrK every week. Cant you just make a thread - "The glorious ShB DrK and how the previous itinerations are lame" and stick everything in there.

[shao32]

Yawn. Yet another DRK thread with the same people complaining. Do we really need a new thread about DRK every week. Can we not just have a thread - "Unpopular opinions about DRK" and stick everything in there.

Im pretty sure ppl will stop complaing about DRK when SE stop ignoring the feedback and desing a proper gameplay for the job instead of removing the fun and copy pasting mechanics to fill the huge holes they left.

[Falar]

More like "popular opinions about DRK" if these threads keep popping up.

[Liam_Harper]

Ever since Stormblood, DRK has always felt like the tank that's busier than WAR but doesn't get rewarded for it. You press more buttons for the same or less result. Living Dead can kill you, Holm can't. DRK dps is almost never top. TBN is great, but the other tanks have plenty of great mitigation and heals too.

DRK has consistently been the "it's viable" or "it's fine" tank. Never the "it's amazing!" tank.

[DRKoftheAzure]

Yawn. Yet another DRK thread with the same people complaining. Do we really need a new thread about DRK every week. Can we not just have a thread - "Unpopular opinions about DRK" and stick everything in there.

To be fair, these threads wouldn't exist if the Dev team just improved upon Heavensward DRK and not constantly taking away really cool eye candy abilities(which means more potency adjustments), but as we have learned even that's too hard for the dev team...


Also you aren't making any friends/allies by complaining about people complaining, it just makes you look and sound like an ***.


Though me complaining about somebody else complaining about other people complaining is fair game, though I might need some correction on that...

Im pretty sure ppl will stop complaing about DRK when SE stop ignoring the feedback and desing a proper gameplay for the job instead of removing the fun and copy pasting mechanics to fill the huge holes they left.

Basically what you said.


But then again the mainstream outrage mobs will always win over actual customers who for some reason would rather have a shit product over actually being outraged...

More like "popular opinions about DRK" if these threads keep popping up.

Only on the official forums... it will never be popular in mainstream because mainstream wants to watch movies...

[Nedkel]

I dont understand people complaining about quietus/bloodspiller spam, when asked what was so amazing in stormblood DRK everyone says it was DA and abyssal drain spam. wat???

4.0 DRK was a complete mess of a job, it was high risk, high effort low-medium reward in comparison to warrior which was simple beast.
It was incredibly easy to mismanage MP, overflow it or use it out and be left with nothing between pulls. It was also super easy to clip skills with one another basically wasting the GCD skills speed (if you had high ping forget about playing DRK), easy to overflow blood gauge as well, once TBN pops up it was filling half of the bar.
Sole survivor and dark passenger were useless before any changes.
Delirium was never used in dungeon environment because why would you if you had quietus and you didnt need it for increasing blood price duration because mobs either were stunned or died quicker than you would want to.
Plunge was not used as a gap close but weird dps skill
CaS required dark arts to not be a DPS loss
Blood weapon was gated behind no-grit which was problematic and totally dependent on your team performance, you couldnt switch from stance to stance it was costing you mp and GCD, and if you do your mistake could cost you aggro because dps never cared to use their enmity role skills.

The entire freaking job was all about min-maxing single digits, you using blood gauge on bloodspiller from TBN was considered either DPS loss or neutral depending on the person you ask, on the thing you are doing and even on the speed of wind behind your damn window.

Everything you did was done better, if you did not had a calculator in your head or sharingan in your eyes then you would stay on 50 percentile forever, because that was a kind of job which everyone were doing mistakes on. The rotation was sometimes so random and out of pace that was a nightmare to optimize. It was fun, but not for those who were playing any harder content.

[TouchandFeel]

I dont understand people complaining about quietus/bloodspiller spam, when asked what was so amazing in stormblood DRK everyone says it was DA and abyssal drain spam. wat???

It basically breaks down into two things, one not being very justifiable and the other being very much so.

First is human nature and its tendency towards selective reasoning and memory.
People tend to build up or look more positively on things that they don't have or lost, while undervaluing or looking more negatively on what they do have.
In regards to Abyssal Drain spam, people look back fondly on it because of how ridiculously overpowered it was. The fact that you could basically spam AoE attacks that also healed you vast amounts essentially indefinitely, making you virtually unkillable was something that people look back on fondly because it felt "powerful" to them. Same with the ridiculous self-heals from Inner Release Cyclone spam. Was it anymore mechanically complex or interesting than the Bloodspiller or Fell Cleave spam? Not really, no. I am honestly thoroughly convinced that if the AoE "spam Abyssal Drain non-stop" so-called "rotation" for DRK was left intact for this expansion, but had it's self-healing nerfed to make it not so overpowered, people would be complaining about how lame and boring the AD spam was.
People will always find something to complain about, even if it was something greatly lauded previously, and they will always find something to put up on a pedestal, even if it was greatly maligned before.

Now the second reason, because spamming a single ability a bunch of times in a row IS boring.
Honestly, IMO spamming something around 3 times is okay but once you get past 3 you are kind of pushing it (no pun intended). I would surmise that it was only really accepted in the past because there wasn't really any example in the game that players could point to as ways to do an ability-spam burst period but make it a bit different and more interesting, at least not on a tank. However with this expansion they have shown that they can mix it up and make more evolved versions of the spam-burst concept with the evolution of the Requiescat spam period on PLD being a perfect example of taking the spam-burst formula and just changing it up slightly to make it feel vastly different.
That's why the single button spam-burst that is still present on WAR and now DRK is maligned, it feels old and tired because it is. It is a design that has existed for multiple expansions now and while it has evolved on some jobs, it has either stayed the same or been introduced in it's antiquated form on other jobs.
That is why I have said in the past that WAR and DRK in Shadowbringers feel like they are one expansion behind the other tank jobs in regards to design, they feel a bit too much like how we were playing last expansion and don't really feel like they got that extra bit of evolution that PLD got, likely because much of the time spent on WAR and DRK for this expansion was used up on reworking things instead of evolving them. That is one of the main reasons I tend to be so skeptical of the frequent "burn it to the ground and rework" it requests that I see so often thrown around for jobs like DRK, but I digress.
This lack of excitement and engagement from the single-button spam-bursts are then exacerbated by being on the two tanks that are the most beholden to their burst periods forming the majority of their active-engagement, with most of the inbetween feeling like "down-time" or just getting ready for/waiting for the next burst period. Then on top of that, WAR and DRK have the most spaced out bursts, so the inbetween periods are longer, adding to the feelings of less overall engagement.
Essentially on WAR and DRK you wait longer between bursts just to then have your burst feel like a bit of a let-down because it is a bit overly simplistic in execution. In contrast you have the other tank jobs that have more frequently cycling bursts also have their spam-bursts be more mechanically complex. That feels a bit backwards to me tbh, where the developers put too much of the complexity (designwise, not execution) on a set of jobs instead of breaking it up and spreading it around accordingly. The jobs with the more engaged rotations, PLD and GNB, really should have the more straight-forward and simple burst periods, especially since the bursts also happen more frequently; while the jobs that have the more simplistic and free-form rotations and rely more on their burst for periods of more complex engagement should therefore have those bursts be more complex and engaging
PLD and GNB, more complex and engaging rotation. WAR and DRK, more complex and engaging burst. That's the way it should be, yet not what we have and that rightly doesn't sit well with players.

[shao32]

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Idk where you get that ppl praise DA spam, more like they praise DA on HW days but well, if we compare DA spam, an oGCD that it's weaved betwen GCD aka making you press way more diferent buttoms on the same period of time compared to the mindless GCD spam without nothing in middle like it's inner delirium windows then yeah DA was way better that this and abyssal drain never reach the amount of spam that delirium granst for resource limitations, at much you get 3 DA+ abyssal drains wich it's way less spamy and was way more rewarding that quietus spam, quietus feel way better in the past and now it's boring and unrewarding to use.

not every job need to be baby proof, there is ppl that loves challenges and we have a wide variety of jobs to please all the customers needs, DRK was the hardest tank to master yes and what? thats fun, thats a lot of fun for some kind of players, DRK was to beautiful to master in the past and his lack of utility kill him on the high end but the job was present on most world first because it was a fun job to play and thats the most important thing on a game, there is no need to make everything brainless, for that don't add more jobs bcs it's stupid, just add skins to PLD and WAR and move on.

sole survivor was usefull on dungeons before the buff, free resources on big pulls, dark passenger was always useful on the same scenarios since was our aoe nuke.

delirium on dungeons offer more MP that quietus with blood price, blood weapon + quietus was better if you have the skill to manage the job off tank stance.

plunge was used as any oGCD, nothing new since DRG and MNK always do that since the begining.

CaS was never a dps loss since it's an oGCD, it was only a less DPS gain if you miss it use it with DA, a dps loss will be never use the skill.

bloodweapon and blood price gated behind grit was a questionable practice but that was a problem of grit himself like PLD stances not bloodweapon, and from my personal experience if you played properly DRK the aggro was never a problem specially since off tank stance you generate way more MP and you could always use DA + power slash to keep the pace, any DPS with skill enough to rip your agro would know how to use his agroo dump skills, if you wasn't able to keep the pace then you was terrible undergeard or doing everything wrong.

the difficulty of the job was fine, it wasn't even harder when you get use to it from my own perspective, DRK wasn't close the most harder job of the game, just one of the most busy and was a lot of fun to play on high end content.

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if we compared old aoe rotation where you play with your shiled to generate resources for quietus to generate MP for abyssal drain, DA and TBN to the current eternal 1-2 ocasional 3 waiting the quietus spam the difference it's very noticeable, current aoe rotation it's way more simple and there is nothing to manage compared to the resource management we use to have, it change a lot in fact, AD never was a spam per se since was pretty limited with the resource limits and management if you wanted to keep the rotation on check and since the self heals was pretty powerful it's not what i use to love hos old AOE rotation, AD was more rewarding to use aesthetically that quietus and quietus use to feels usefull compared to now, current rotations feels to easy and lame and the hard part for calling it something it's just use TBN and broke it.

i disagree with the second part complety, i personally don't hate inner delirium spam bcs it's feel like an outdated mechanic or something like that, i hate it bcs it's a WAR mechanic, DRK was historically in this game a sustained damage job constantly working on his resources to keep his numbers up something unique and fun to play around, and now DRK has complety lost that part of his identity to become a WAR clone, they don't even have a unique burst window wich make it worse, i personally accept this kind of mechanic on a job or 2 bcs it's his personal flow and since i don't like it i accept it for those who play that job and have fun with that, but now this mechanic start to spread like a wildfire betwen the jobs this expansion for some reason, now DRK and MCH, healers plaged with 1 spell spam and probably tomorrow GNB will be cursed with this nonesense too, it's annoying bcs not everyone love this stupid spam fest and at the same time they dont copy paste enochian or blood of dragoon mechanic to other casters/melees so they should stop spreading this on the tanks, whats the reason to have 4 tanks it's all of them end having the same generic rotation with minuscule variations? delete 2 of them and port his aesthetics to the 2 originals as a optional perk and stop pretending we have something we don't.

complety missundestand the post, my apologize.

[TouchandFeel]

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Um ... you basically just kept TBN on cooldown like you do now, spit out a Quietus when you had 50+ Blood the same as now and the rest was mostly DA+AD spam. It wasn't complex and was unarguably repetitive. Now, you are right that what we currently have is also not complex and very repetitive, but a boring AoE rotation is not limited to DRK and is a different topic unto itself.
The most consistent praise that I have seen for the old DA+AD spam was the massive heals and how godly it made players feel, which I will agree was true. You felt super powerful because it was completely over-powered. Take that aspect away and players would not feel the same about it. It's a fine and often emotionally blurred line between being "too simple and boring" and being "more work for less or equal results".

As for "I hate it because it's a WAR ability", really not so much. PLD technically had the mechanic first. So why don't you hate Inner Release and Delirium for being Requiescat+Holy Spirit clones? Why don't you hate Bow Shock for being a Circle of Scorn clone? I could go on ad naseum since so many abilities and mechanics between jobs are essentially cloned or variations of each other.
Pointing to just one example of this pattern and saying that you hate it because it is just like another ability is superficial at best and only touches on a very shallow "what" instead of actually contemplating the "whys" of it all. While it is justifiable to want unique mechanics and game-play, you need to actually provide sound justifications and reasoning otherwise it just comes across as reactionary and not very thought out.

So you hate the spam-burst mechanics, that's fine and a perfectly valid opinion but it is just that an opinion and not the reasoning to validate said opinion. You need to put forth an argument as to why spam-burst mechanics are bad.
That's what I tried to do. You don't have to agree with my assessment but I at least put thought into presenting an argument and backed it up with reasoning.
It also seems like you didn't quite understand my argument, as I was arguing as well that the single ability spam-burst mechanics are at this point in the game bad. I just looked beyond my current feelings on the matter, detached it from any specific job and looked at the mechanic itself since complaints are not limited just to DRK, took into account that they previously were considered by many players to be fun and enjoyable and yet now they are seen as being lame and boring. Basically just trying to take a few steps back, take an objective viewpoint and look for an evolving pattern in the mechanics and the subsequent player reception of them. That's how I came up with my hypothesis on why players currently feel the way they do about spam-burst mechanics.

So a little TLDR for that to make it easier to understand ...
- Spamming a single button for your burst is mechanically simplistic, which can quickly become not engaging.
- We the players likely tolerated it before because it was super powerful and relatively new in regards to mechanics and having such strongly defined burst periods.
- It's no longer new and so the shiny of it all has worn off and we see it better for its simplicity and are underwhelmed.
- Some jobs like PLD got an extra layer of complexity added to their spam to make it feel different while others were stuck with the same old thing (WAR) or just got the boring old version (DRK).
- The tanks that most depend on their burst periods for active engagement in their offenses got saddled with the more simple burst mechanics.

As you can see, I never argued for the simplistic spam-burst mechanics that we currently have for WAR and DRK. I argued directly against it, saying that those jobs should have more complex burst mechanics than either PLD or GNB due to their reliance on burst for offensive game-play and being more light on rotation mechanics.
I think if you slowed down a bit and didn't just react emotionally, you'd probably see that we are and have been arguing for essentially the same thing if not something similar.

Lastly, we shouldn't forget that one of, if not the most brought up complaint for DRK previously was its lack of proper burst damage. Could the devs have implemented it better? Most definitely, but lets not lie to ourselves that "keeping the DRK identity" of being sustained damage was something that was asked for when the exact opposite was the reality. Burst phases on tanks that sync with raid buffs are a thing and aren't going anywhere unless they completely change the combat design in the game, they just need to better implement them for the different jobs.

[shao32]

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well i will explain my self better then, why i dislike so much the spam mechanics? for many reasons.

-to simple mechanically specially if doesn't have oGCD involved making it tedious and boring.
-aesthetically lame, forcing me to see the same animation several times in a row it's not only antinatural for me, strategically speaking nobody will hit the same spot the same time doing the same move several times in a row, granted it's a videogame but thats why it's bother me.
-so many jobs with the same stuff, small variations doesnt change it's the same thing over and over again.
-i can't rely on muscle memory for this and i tryed but i have to constantly count the amount of hits im doing wich i find pretty annoying for both mentally and muscle memory since i could end pushing the same button more than necesary.

why WAR and no PLD? PLD have a casted version of this at the begining, gameplay wise use to feel way diferent for me and from the begining WAR have the 5-6 fell cleave spam wich wasn't pretty diferent of what they get at the end, the spam culture begins on SB and WAR started with the weaponskills while PLD was spells, why botther me more is DRK lose a unique mechanic to learn this and we get a exact copy of inner release not requiem cast. DRK need a burst? yes no? what really bother me this expansion is losing complety the sustain from the job, we pass from having bloodweapon for 15s every 40s (having a efective downtime of 30s, 24s after delirium) to 10s of buff every 60s with a efective downtime of 50s wich it's huge without counting the masive concentration of all your oGCD under bloodweapon window leaving the entire downtime with nothing to do excep salted earth.

about the last part im not reacting emotionally, this is pretty old for me, i was busy on discord at the same time looks like i missunderstand you so my apologize, big walls of text doesn't help much under that situation specially when english is not my first language, i will try to don't be busy next time.