The only thing I miss about WoW when playing FFXIV: Scrub's rights.

[Nedkel]

I am learning a lot about how the community has been conditioned by the way this thread is going haha!

On blizzard board you would be called names with similar thread man. xD

FFXIV community is a little nicer but thats due to the strict and ruthless rules written in ToS.

[Omedon]

Ok, I think some people in this thread may be misunderstanding the entire point of the discussion here, which was a thought experiment to compare the way two different games and potentially their communities are conditioned. That’s not intended to insult, in case that’s been lost in translation.

In WoW, a game that has thrived through rises and falls of its own, the modern game absolutely does not single out the individual player in a place that their friends cannot help them, as part of a trying, testing and gating process to seeing story content. There is an accessible main thoroughfare that, in the modern game, makes most interdependent content optional. There is a path of least resistance that a mega casual player can see the story, gear up and yes, potentially find their way into a random, automatically assembled group some day passing through a gate measured only by item level. In this case, the main flow of the game doesn’t at any point check individual player skill because there isn’t a “fair” way to do that that is automated. They leave it to the community to filter each other, which is how we get monstrosities like raider dot io, which boils one’s experiences down to a single number. It’s highly flawed, but the tiers of difficulty where these addons enable this community filtration/elitism are, once again, entirely optional and not part of the core access level of the game.

In FFXIV, whether the people here want to admit it or not, the burden of elitism and filtration is removed from the players in exchange for a trust that **the game** is doing its job to tell Johnny fanboy who sucks at gaming but loves the story that he “should ask questions and look to improve,” because the game will test if he has or not, so the players are free to kindly suggest courses of improving one’s game. “You can do it Johnny! (And if he can’t thankfully he won’t burden us!)”

Honestly, there are pros and cons to each style, but they do generate entirely separate community discourse. I’d argue that FFXIV’s system is cleaner and more progressive in light of a no-longer-novel internet gaming sphere. We really cannot be trusted any more to be each other’s gatekeepers, and WoW has learned this lesson the hard way. The FFXIV community interactions are generally cleaner, again because we can trust that scrubs won’t make it to our groups because to be in this dungeon your healer has at least somewhere proven that they can win a longass duel as thancred which is a **totally relevant** skill to their healing the dungeon!

Overall, I’m not attacking FFXIV or WoW. I do think FFXIV seemingly has had to to adopt a different style of “protecting us from each other,” but it comes at the cost of holding the story hostage.

But again... I made it through the filter, so it’s all ok!

[Lastelli]

But again... I made it through the filter, so it’s all ok!

Aaaaah, I see where the problem is, now. You seem to believe that those quests are an effective gate to prevent scrubs from reaching end-game content.

That's not the case. Because the bar is set so low, especially now that we have an easy mode, those quests simply serve as a wake-up call in case the player for some reason didn't realize he was playing an action-based mmorpg and to qualify this as a game and not a visual novel. If you believe that those quests are actually a gate, do realize that this is your problem. The community being conditioned has nothing to do with it.

[Odstarva]

You think the main story quests are a filter? My oh my, I hope you never have to set foot inside an extreme trial, let alone a savage raid...

Heck, I'd be surprised if you don't run into roadblocks just doing the regular stuff!

[Vidu]

I cant speak to WoW and the Warcraft series, but this game is working very much like other Final Fantasy games and other (J)RPGs by having the story and the gameplay closely connected. Its not both a storytelling walking simulator AND a game that makes you fight monsters - as most RPGs its both at the same time and all in one.

Some people may dislike the story-focus and are only intrested in the fights - and some people might dislike the fighting aspect alltogether and would rather only see the story. I are say that a lot of people are used to having both connected and actually like that kind of "gamestyle" thats been used throughout the Final Fantasy series.
I dont know if you've ever played a single player FF, but you can run into the very same problem there: I think it took me like 5 or 6 tries to beat Efrye in FFX and until I did the game basically had nothing else for me to do. Its really nothing new that games lock their stories behind challenges like a more or less difficult fight. As you pointed out correctly MMOs let you circumvent that because other people can carry you through them.
That doesnt mean that you should just let that happen, though. Honestly, I find this attitude of "oh well, I'll eventually get carried through this dungeon, just gotta go through enough groups and vote kicks" pretty... bad and respectless. The idea of "Well, I somehow made it through this challenge so now I'm good" also isnt great to be honest.

I cant compare WoW and FF, because I never played WoW, but I think you missunderstood some stuff about FFXIV: While yes, quests like the one you mentioned also help to keep completly clueless people out of our dungeons, its not only that. FFXIV works a lot like other FFs/RPGs by connecting story and gameplay and by requiring you to complete certain challenges that come up within the story to continue the narrative.
If you dont like that or dont want to develope the skills to beat those challenges your best bet would be to find a Lets Play - or a game that has less fighting involved.

Maybe your intent was missunderstood, but even this post comes off as a complaint about you being locked out from continuing the story until you beat a (very easy) quest and not so much as a thought experiment. Either way: Yes, this game requires you to know how you play it. And relying on carries is just not something you should do. People are usually willing to help you improve - but as in a solo-game you have to do that yourself if you want to continue on.

[Omedon]

Aaaaah, I see where the problem is, now. You seem to believe that those quests are an effective gate to prevent scrubs from reaching end-game content.

That's not the case. Because the bar is set so low, especially now that we have an easy mode, those quests simply serve as a wake-up call in case the player for some reason didn't realize he was playing an action-based mmorpg and to qualify this as a game and not a visual novel. If you believe that those quests are actually a gate, do realize that this is your problem. The community being conditioned has nothing to do with it.

I do think there are multiple cases in this thread where people are taking their skills and familiarity with this particular game very much for granted. Perhaps I do so with my meager WoW skills as well. That said, as a relative outsider looking in, there are some solo duty elements that are certainly gates, whether veterans wish to acknowledge that or not.

[spf1200]

I do think there are multiple cases in this thread where people are taking their skills and familiarity with this particular game very much for granted. Perhaps I do so with my meager WoW skills as well. That said, as a relative outsider looking in, there are some solo duty elements that are certainly gates, whether veterans wish to acknowledge that or not.

INothing in the MQ asks much of the player. Doesn't matter oh long you have played the game they should all be simple as long as you have a basic understanding of the game. If you feel you need others to carry you through basic content like you seem to do in WoW you are the problem not the game.

[Satarn]

I am learning a lot about how the community has been conditioned by the way this thread is going haha!

"Could I be mistaken? No, it can't be - it's everyone who disagrees with me that's wrong."

Considering your sentiments and the weird "game dares to challenge me" type language, perhaps it is you who has been conditioned by all the video-game journalists constantly complaining that all games should allow you to play them on god-mode, so you can "just enjoy the story". Btw Youtube and Twitch allow for that and don't cost you a sub, so it seems like a win-win.

Something, something, FFXIV is the Dark Souls of mmo questlines :v

[Vaer]

I wouldn't consider those quests to be a "filter" honestly, especially not on very easy. That you were able to get to that point and being unable to do it means everything previous to it was too easy. Honestly it's more that the game conditions you with easy content (when compared to actual hard content) on the way to level cap and then when the difficulty increases it just hits you in the face.

The holding the story hostage thing though is an intentional design choice. They just decided to care about continuity more than WoW which seems to cares about gameplay more.

[Vidu]

I do think there are multiple cases in this thread where people are taking their skills and familiarity with this particular game very much for granted. Perhaps I do so with my meager WoW skills as well. That said, as a relative outsider looking in, there are some solo duty elements that are certainly gates, whether veterans wish to acknowledge that or not.

The solo duties require the same things - or rather: even less, but within the same basic principles - of you than the trials and dungeons within the game. If you still feel like an "outsider looking in" after reaching level 80, I have to wonder how you got to that level without learning those basic principles or your skillset. Those 80 levels you went through and all those dungeons you've run while slowly adding more and more skills to your hotbar are the way to familiarize yourself with the game to a degree that allows you to beat such challenges.

If you feel that you arent familiar enough with the game, you can always practise a bit at a striking dummy, look up rotations and guides or ask people for help - again this really isnt to different from single player games.
Those quests show you what you should have learned so far - and if you havent then now is your chance to do so. If you're struggling its the game telling you "hey, you're doing something wrong" - and if you're struggling in content thats the most easy content in game, you're doing something very wrong and should try to correct that instead of coming up with excuses like "This is just to difficult for a new person"!

One reason I dont like carrying people through content - or rather one problem I think MMOs can have is that those people will never know that they're bad at the game. They never know that they're only clearing content because the other 3/7/23 people are just a little bit better than the minimum requirement and can make up for their shortcoming. So those people never improve - and will eventually hit a roadblock like a solo-instance which shows them that they didnt learn all the things they should have learned within the last 60+ levels of playing the game - and I get that this can seem overwhelming now... but thats not a good reason not to do that now.
If a game is telling you "Hey, you need to get better at this if you want to keep playing" you have two choices: Either improve - or quit the game. MMOs might offer you a third choice of becoming a leech, stumbling their way through the odd solo-quests but I dont think thats a choice anyone should ever make.