Thank you Yoshi for your stance on DPS meters

[Liam_Harper]

Fundamentally, it is the same. Firearm is forbidden (Parser). They will not actively to hunt you as long as you don't break the law (use fire arm/use parser to harass). As long as nothing happen, you are free to use parser for your self improvement. Nevertheless, it doesn't mean it is legal and you are subject to account penalty (arrest if caught carry a gun).

Why on earth is a real life tool intended to kill living beings, compared to a digital number analysis tool in a computer game?

What are you trying to prove right now?

Same to you.

[Penthea]

Why on earth is a real life tool intended to kill living beings, compared to a digital number analysis tool in a computer game?

It's the whole "guns don't kill, people do" sort of argument, which is being compared to "parsers aren't toxic, people are".

[Angus-Beef]

I am glad that you are; but unfortunately you are minority already
That may be true when 25 men raid is a thing, and me too, as a Paladin officer i will provided the assistance.
Game culture has changed
That is is simply not how humanity works at mass

Player to play experiences vary greatly. What you have seen, what I have seen. Doesn;t matter. The issue rn with parsing is simple, just as it was back then in wow, too mnay lazy entitled players in the popular MMO who are mad they're being called out to not weight the group down, some people who call others out are mean, yes, but a decent amount of these situations aren't looked at with logic, they're looked at with emotion. Because of that they are usually blown way out of proportion, a GM gets involved, said person usually gets a warning for possibly being slightly harsh and the person who made the report feels better about themselves.

Now out of that situation several things happen, that lazy/bad player will not improve, they will continually be in that exact same situation with a myriad of different players, parsers and non-parsers, all will tell them to get better, they'll keep acting entitled to wasting others time and continue to keep doing it. The player who was reported will either go on to make sure to word things better or just refuse to help anymore, or become toxic to any player seen not pulling their weight.

As for my personal situation I've come from in WoW, I was ina raiding guild from Ulduar to mid ICC, they used recount as a means to yes, weed out the weaker raiders and replace them with more competent raider. My group that I was leading were filled with these raider who needed to improve, so I would fire up recount, take em to the dumy and give them the gold needed to respec and work on their talent build and rotation. my job was to spend hours if needed in my free time making sure everyone was optimal and doing properly.

This ofc is just one guild, one guild that wanted players to be optimal. This mentality also died as WoW grew bigger and the newer players became lazier and more self entitled. Parsers are in no way comparible to guns, but as a tool it shows facts, these facts are needed if any MMO community is to maintain a healthy raiding scene. Without them it would be hard to weed out these players who don;t realize that the needs of the group are always before the needs of self. Atm FF has amny smaller communities a lot of people don't notice because well, people like to not interact. But to say ACT hasn't helped and current;y isn't being used to help is a massive fallacy.

[Divinemights]

It's the whole "guns don't kill, people do" sort of argument, which is being compared to "parsers aren't toxic, people are".

Point exactly.

[Divinemights]

Player to play experiences vary greatly. What you have seen, what I have seen. Doesn;t matter. The issue rn with parsing is simple, just as it was back then in wow, too mnay lazy entitled players in the popular MMO who are mad they're being called out to not weight the group down, some people who call others out are mean, yes, but a decent amount of these situations aren't looked at with logic, they're looked at with emotion. Because of that they are usually blown way out of proportion, a GM gets involved, said person usually gets a warning for possibly being slightly harsh and the person who made the report feels better about themselves.

Now out of that situation several things happen, that lazy/bad player will not improve, they will continually be in that exact same situation with a myriad of different players, parsers and non-parsers, all will tell them to get better, they'll keep acting entitled to wasting others time and continue to keep doing it. The player who was reported will either go on to make sure to word things better or just refuse to help anymore, or become toxic to any player seen not pulling their weight.

As for my personal situation I've come from in WoW, I was ina raiding guild from Ulduar to mid ICC, they used recount as a means to yes, weed out the weaker raiders and replace them with more competent raider. My group that I was leading were filled with these raider who needed to improve, so I would fire up recount, take em to the dumy and give them the gold needed to respec and work on their talent build and rotation. my job was to spend hours if needed in my free time making sure everyone was optimal and doing properly.

This ofc is just one guild, one guild that wanted players to be optimal. This mentality also died as WoW grew bigger and the newer players became lazier and more self entitled. Parsers are in no way comparible to guns, but as a tool it shows facts, these facts are needed if any MMO community is to maintain a healthy raiding scene. Without them it would be hard to weed out these players who don;t realize that the needs of the group are always before the needs of self. Atm FF has amny smaller communities a lot of people don't notice because well, people like to not interact. But to say ACT hasn't helped and current;y isn't being used to help is a massive fallacy.

You are saying this, yet there are people that pull off Koike incident on a livest ream.
Is Miyu Koike a lazy raider or she is just being humiliated and harassed?
This is where the problem is, community does not see the positives that parsers can bring because of outweighed by all of the negatives

[QT_Melon]

You are saying this, yet there are people that pull off Koike incident on a livest ream.
Is Miyu Koike a lazy raider or she is just being humiliated and harassed?
This is where the problem is, community does not see the positives that parsers can bring because of outweighed by all of the negatives

There were no parsers involved at that point to be fair.

Though to also be fair people in Japan that are harassed are often harassed so that the person commits suicide.

[Avidria]

I am glad that you are; but unfortunately you are minority already
That may be true when 25 men raid is a thing, and me too, as a Paladin officer i will provided the assistance.
Game culture has changed
That is is simply not how humanity works at mass

Well that's a bit of a pessimistic view, and not one I really agree with. I'm more with the person you're quoting here... your experiences are not universal. Several people in my guild when I raided in Legion were more than willing to help people improve, and the one member we did kick for underperforming was given several chances to improve and willingly chose not to.

I'm not here to argue on the nature of humanity, and I'm sorry you've had enough negative experiences to see parsers as nothing more than a weapon to be used to cause harm (if I'm understanding your view correctly?), but that's not how I see them at all. They're a tool, but how they're used is entirely up to the person using them. And I've seen them used for good plenty of times, and most often during my 15+ years playing wow, they simply weren't mentioned at all. In my experience people generally didn't care outside of high end content as long as it looked like you were actually present and trying, and those who did were either full of themselves to begin with or were That One Guy who spams the meter after every pull in Shadowfang Keep because he's Cool Like That (you know the guy...) and that kinda nonsense is just that... nonsense. Not worth taking seriously more often than not.

[Angus-Beef]

I just love how this person literally missed my whole point and dodged the the points I made

[Melichoir]

It's the whole "guns don't kill, people do" sort of argument, which is being compared to "parsers aren't toxic, people are".

Point exactly.

Which is true. Parsers arent self aware entities. Theyre tools and they can be misused. The problem with your position is this:

There is no "positive" use of parser/recount/damage meter because we are all hypocrites (yes, including me)
Parser, instead of a tool used for feedback, it becomes a weapon.
Since TBC to BFA in WoW, not even once where parser is being used for teaching purpose.
It is a tool for guild officers to weed out the less performers.
You are being delusional if you are saying otherwise.
I am in my WoW guild's officer chat
The individual who claiming "meter doesn't matter" in the gchat/vent/discord is the same person who is complaining about other's healing/dps is up to par.
YoshipP is/was a WoW players and of course he has witnessed these hypocrites.
People will not use parser as tool for improvement and merely use it as a tool for elimination
If FF14 already made their stance on parser, please don't try to sugarcoating to make parser looks so positive when it is actually not in reality
Yes, you can still use parser; but just be reminded that you are also vulnerable to violate TOS for account penalty.
There is no point to argue further.

Speak for yourself in this regards. The crux of your position regarding it not being positive is predicated that everyone is a hypocrite, toxic, will abuse parsers, and that no one is above this. Thats a pretty dark and frankly BS position to hold. It pretty is boiling down to everyone is a bad person deep down therefore no one should have parsers. It's kind of messed up. And you try to rationalize this position by your own personal experience in WoW. Guess what, I played WoW too, and you want to know what was toxic as F there? Achievements. You want to know what was toxic as F there? PvP. You want to know what else was? Loot systems from raids. You want to know the truth? Toxicity isnt about a specific thing, its about some people who are jerks will find ways to be jerks. This is why YoshiP is saying its a harassment issue - because its a tool that is being misused by a small portion of players. And guess what? He and SE isnt banning people for it unless it comes up in harassment cases. Why is that? Could it be that he understands that its not the tool in of itself and that it's people using said tool irresponsibly? Hell, the fact SE isnt going hard on it to address toxicity would also imply that they dont see it as a huge widespread problem and have systems in place to address harassment. At worst, his position about not having a parser in game actually is more damning of casual players, as those who raid are likely using one already and adding one to game will grant greater access to casual players. The implication that doing so would increase toxicity means that the toxicity is gonna come from the casual crowd, not raiders.

But lets play devil's advocate here! Lets twirl our mustaches and laugh maniacally. What is wrong with raid leaders weeding out players who are under performing and holding the raid back from progress? Raiding is a group effort. If someone is preventing your group from progressing do to lack of skill, even if they put in tons of effort, should the other members be held back? If the boss requires a sustained DPS of 80,000 to beat enrage, a DPS that has been designed into the fight by the devs, and one of your DPS is only doing 3k DPS, are you literally saying "Nah, its wrong for the static to weed out under performers!" Cause even if the other DPS did a solid 13k a piece, and tanks did 8k and healers did 8k. Youd end up short.

See the problem with the point you said way back is that youre conflating raid leaders and raid groups ability to cut underperforming members who arent measuring up with being toxic. That to discern quality raiders from poor ones is somehow inherently toxic. But thats the thing. Its not. It's a lot about how you go about it. If the raid leader pulls aside said person and says "Hey, you need to pick it up cause were struggling to clear here." is one thing, and isnt in any way toxic. If they cut them and explain why in a decent mannered way, its not toxic. Now if said raid leader was like "Yeah, youre a PoS trash player. GTFO" and encourages everyone to gang up on said player, thats toxic.

The reality is that most statics will cut you if you under perform. And most of htem will be honest but blunt. "You just werent doing high enough damage for progress" or "You werent getting mechanics down and it's slowing us down." And even then, most groups will trial run players that show promise. To be frank, To me it feels a lot more like you got a chip on your shoulder about raiding than it is about parsers. That somehow raiding would be better or less toxic if parsers didnt exist. But thats simply not gonna be the case. As I said, people find ways to be toxic if theyre gonna be because it's not about the tools, its about the people. Hell you want a good FFXIV example of people being toxic without the use of a parser? Try running Orbonne Monastery before reset and get to the third boss and have 1 raid group purposefully wipe for 45 minutes on add phase to stall out the raid long enough so reset happens and screws the other players out of the weekly they were trying to get before reset. That's using literal game mechanics designed by the devs to troll and be toxic towards other players. You dont need a parser to be a jerk in FFXIV, and there are plenty of people who demonstrate this daily who dont have a parser installed.

[Annihilism]

I've experienced the complete oppoaite on 14 than I did on 11 for some reason. The high level players were usually the most toxic on ff11, because competition for gear was intense. But in 14 the casuals are usually the group that cause the most headaches for me.

The ease at which you can aquire items 14 maybe contributes to these people not applying themselves and not willing learn new things. I can't even ask people to use AoE abilities without gwtting threatened. Now having a parser will seem like people have target on your back since toxic casuals use reporting as a weapon to counter constructive criticism.

Similar to real life political issues, ff14s problem could be cultural or maybe the devs are at fault for umplenting a system that allows gross incompetence. I don't know, because I dont do savage so dont take me seriously.