Thank you Yoshi for your stance on DPS meters

[SweetestLily]

So the statement "we died because we didn't get healed" is ok but saying "we enraged because you didn't do enough dps" is frowned upon? Why do people think dps deserve special privileges. We know right away when a tank is losing aggro or not using cooldowns. We know right away when a healer is doing a poor job and not keeping the group alive. We know instantly when these two roles are lacking in their job but we DON'T and CAN'T know when a dps is lacking in theirs? All because people want to be carried through content they have no business
being in in the first place without being told to pull their weight .Ridiculous.

[QT_Melon]

So the statement "we died because we didn't get healed" is ok but saying "we enraged because you didn't do enough dps" is frowned upon? Why do people think dps deserve special privileges. We know right away when a tank is losing aggro or not using cooldowns. We know right away when a healer is doing a poor job and not keeping the group alive. We know instantly when these two roles are lacking in their job but we DON'T and CAN'T know when a dps is lacking in theirs? All because people want to be carried through content they have no business
being in in the first place without being told to pull their weight .Ridiculous.

No. People have said in parties before "we failed the DPS check" it's never been a problem.

Specifically berating a player with a third party tool IS however frowned upon, and punishable.

Telling a player that he/she may want to brush up on his/her rotation and that Stone Sea Sky/Lawns may be a good starting point, and telling them you only want to help them improve is not harassment. It never has been.

The key things are harassment and third party tools.

If you want players to do their best, simply DO YOUR best to relay that information in a non harassing way.

[wereotter]

So the statement "we died because we didn't get healed" is ok but saying "we enraged because you didn't do enough dps" is frowned upon? Why do people think dps deserve special privileges. We know right away when a tank is losing aggro or not using cooldowns. We know right away when a healer is doing a poor job and not keeping the group alive. We know instantly when these two roles are lacking in their job but we DON'T and CAN'T know when a dps is lacking in theirs? All because people want to be carried through content they have no business
being in in the first place without being told to pull their weight .Ridiculous.

Once you know a fight, you will know as the fight progresses if the DPS are putting out enough damage. You'll be able to tell if the boss is at a low enough percentage of health as phases progress. At that point, yes, it's fair to point out that the damage output isn't high enough. I've been in groups where that has happened... and I've been the one to say that's the problem (this as a DPS without having any parsing tool)

It's also fair to say that things are going wrong when people are dying not to healers doing their job. We saw that feedback happen a lot in fight against TG Cid. It's also fair to say when tanks are demanding too much of healers when they don't use cool downs. Every person not doing their job well effects other players. It's fair to give that feedback if done tactfully and in such a way offers people the opportunity to get better.

The problem is when people go down the path of "hey idiot, learn your job!"

I've seen that too. I've also seen people of all roles rage quit instances no matter how polite the person giving feedback is trying to be. You just gotta do your best, and give feedback if needed in a way that you would want to receive it.

[SweetestLily]

Once you know a fight, you will know as the fight progresses if the DPS are putting out enough damage. You'll be able to tell if the boss is at a low enough percentage of health as phases progress. At that point, yes, it's fair to point out that the damage output isn't high enough. I've been in groups where that has happened... and I've been the one to say that's the problem (this as a DPS without having any parsing tool)

It's also fair to say that things are going wrong when people are dying not to healers doing their job. We saw that feedback happen a lot in fight against TG Cid. It's also fair to say when tanks are demanding too much of healers when they don't use cool downs. Every person not doing their job well effects other players. It's fair to give that feedback if done tactfully and in such a way offers people the opportunity to get better.

The problem is when people go down the path of "hey idiot, learn your job!"

I've seen that too. I've also seen people of all roles rage quit instances no matter how polite the person giving feedback is trying to be. You just gotta do your best, and give feedback if needed in a way that you would want to receive it.

I'm not talking about insulting people. I'm talking about asking people to do the job they chose when they joined the party. People badly need to understand that these two things are not the same. If someone ask you to do the job you're not doing, I believe they have that right. And if something isn't dying fast enough yeah it's easy to tell that there's a dps problem. But unless you're watching them do their rotation or see that they aren't properly geared you can't possibly know who is the one causing this problem.
I said it before and I'll always say this. People need to get out of the habit of blaming inanimate tools for crappy human behavior. If someone wants to be an a**hole they don't need a parser to do it.

[Jojoya]

Telling a player that he/she may want to brush up on his/her rotation and that Stone Sea Sky/Lawns may be a good starting point, and telling them you only want to help them improve is not harassment. It never has been.

How do you know which player needs to brush up on their rotation without the 3rd party tools? Short of someone obviously using the same attack over and over, of course. Buff/debuffs in the target and party frames only tell part of the story and you still may not know there's a problem with any of those unless it's something that should have 100% uptime outside of transitions.

No third party tools mean I have no way to analyze my performance and find ways to improve since SE won't give me those tools in the first place.

The third party tools are not the problem in most cases. The problem is the players who misuse them to harass others. Taking away tools does not stop the harassment. Those who like to harass will continue to do so.

In the meantime you have removed the tool that a player could have been using to analyze and improve their performance, thus reducing their risk of becoming a target for harassment in the first place.

Wouldn't it be better to remove the harasser and leave the useful tool in place?

[AngelCheese77]

It's almost as though the hostility brought to Yoshi-P and staff from these very forums are proof enough that the NA community does not deserve in game meters. Let alone encouragement to use them for group play.

I have to agree. Personally I don't use a parser nor do I hate them. If someone wants to use it, go for it. The issue forms when parsers are used to harass other players with threats to kick them or the like.

We need to just come to terms that SE, at this time, will not put parsers into the game. Simple as that.

[QT_Melon]

How do you know which player needs to brush up on their rotation without the 3rd party tools? Short of someone obviously using the same attack over and over, of course. Buff/debuffs in the target and party frames only tell part of the story and you still may not know there's a problem with any of those unless it's something that should have 100% uptime outside of transitions.

No third party tools mean I have no way to analyze my performance and find ways to improve since SE won't give me those tools in the first place.

The third party tools are not the problem in most cases. The problem is the players who misuse them to harass others. Taking away tools does not stop the harassment. Those who like to harass will continue to do so.

In the meantime you have removed the tool that a player could have been using to analyze and improve their performance, thus reducing their risk of becoming a target for harassment in the first place.

Wouldn't it be better to remove the harasser and leave the useful tool in place?

Thanks for making arguments against points I never made in addressing what the issue was.

[QT_Melon]

I'm not talking about insulting people. I'm talking about asking people to do the job they chose when they joined the party.

That's NOT the point you made, or made clearly.

See below what people are actually taking you to task about.

So the statement "we died because we didn't get healed" is ok but saying "we enraged because you didn't do enough dps" is frowned upon?

And even worse ...

Why do people think dps deserve special privileges.

I fail to see where this was ACTUALLY made an argument, and DPS specifically - since the use of the tool also looks at Healer and Tank DPS as well (especially the third party tool - it's reading the battle log). This has long been a contention with groups.

We know right away when a tank is losing aggro or not using cooldowns. We know right away when a healer is doing a poor job and not keeping the group alive. We know instantly when these two roles are lacking in their job but we DON'T and CAN'T know when a dps is lacking in theirs? All because people want to be carried through content they have no business
being in in the first place without being told to pull their weight .Ridiculous.

If you're going to strawman then tell people they misinterpreted it. That's not fair. There are still indicators but this actually does require RAID awareness. The tool only makes it EASIER to see when someone is LOWER damage (not per say ENOUGH)

It was refuted that YOU can say something, just not harass people about it, with or without a parser present. The only thing that you CANNOT do is disclose the use of said (third party) tool when YOU do it.

Having one in game during an instance, can be useful, but where does the meter stop since people don't consider other factors, like Job output, Gear, and the Damage a Tank and Healer does in that instance. Do we JUST measure the DPS when the battle log records ALL damage?

[EaMett]

I fail to see where this was ACTUALLY made an argument, and DPS specifically - since the use of the tool also looks at Healer and Tank DPS as well. This has long been a contention with groups.

I think the initial point they were making is that if one player is holding you back because they have super low dps, you can only tell through parsing, and you're not allowed to call them out for it, no matter how polite you are about it. Instead you kind of have to leave instance, kick the player and replace them which isn't any better imo but the status quo SE would rather have.

Asking a tank to focus on a swap after they screw up is ok. Calling a healer out for dpsing and not healing is ok. Calling a dps out for low dps isn't.

[QT_Melon]

I think the initial point they were making is that if one player is holding you back because they have super low dps, you can only tell through parsing, and you're not allowed to call them out for it, no matter how polite you are about it. Instead you kind of have to leave instance, kick the player and replace them which isn't any better imo but the status quo SE would rather have.

Asking a tank to focus on a swap after they screw up is ok. Calling a healer out for dpsing and not healing is ok. Calling a dps out for low dps isn't.

Because 90% of the time the above is a problem is because people call them out using a parser. There have been many ways people have stated a singular player isn't doing their job optimally without harassing and being constructive.