5.0 Dark knight request: Delirium rework

[DRKoftheAzure]

I quite literally in the post you quoted explained why TBN and Clemency are not comparable to one another. I suggest that you learn to read.

I suggest you do the same.

[ArianeEwah]

My guy, you have not proven anything. If you read my prior post you will see that I showed exactly how TBN provides more eHP than NF. I explained it quite clearly and even gave numbers to back it up. The only time TBN provides a damage loss is if it does not break, and even boss AUTO ATTACKS in EX/Savage will break the shield. So if you aren't having TBN break in that level of content then that is 100% a problem with how you are using the ability, and you should improve upon it. There's a reason that TBN pre-pull is standard for DRK, because you can TBN yourself and then immediately pull the boss, and the first two auto attacks that the boss does will proceed to immediately break the shield. So, in other words, you need to use the ability properly.

With this post you have proven that you have no practical experience with neither TBN nor NF in savage. 2 AUTO ATTACKS in Ex OR Savage DO NOT break the shield once you're BiS! An AA from a boss does ~15k dmg, your shield has more than 30k, this doesn't break it! And jfyi I did use TBN on pull in Savage and Ex trials at one point, and guess what - it doesn't break over 50% of the time - so I stoped doing that because I couldn't ensure it breaks.

And the point is: if you use TBN only when you can ensure that it breaks within 7s, you do NOT use it on CD. Once you start NOT using it on CD, it because less effective than NF, period!

The cases in which TBN will save your *ss when other abilities cannot are less than 0.1%. This is not what I am saying, this is what pro tank players are saying, and they have played hundreds of savage runs.

No, I'm trying to explain to someone who has an objectively flawed understanding of how the game and abilities work how, in fact, the game and abilities work. You simply can't accept that you're wrong even when raw numbers are shown to you.

You haven't shown raw numbers, you used THEORY numbers. And - one last time, just for you - THEORY =/= PRACTICE. You cannot compare your so-called "raw numbers" with an actual fight, that don't practice your theory because IT DOES NOT WORK that way.

Your understanding of NF is also heavily lacking. I would not be surprised if you start telling me that RI is better than NF...

[Lucy_Pyre]

-snip-

Titan savage auto attacks for 32k damage. TBN shields you for 37k HP at BiS. A single auto attack from Titan will leave you with only 4-5k HP left on the shield, based on the variance in damage from his auto attack. The following auto attack 2-3 seconds later will break it, granting you Dark Arts. Eden Prime in E1S autos for around 24k, meaning that two autos total out to around 48k damage and, thus, a broken TBN. Hades EX autos for around the same that Eden Prime savage autos for. The fact that you claim to understand the inner workings of this job and its core ability, yet don't even understand the situations in which the ability can be properly utilized and applied, tells me that you have a woefully lacking in your overall knowledge and understanding. Frankly, you have done an extremely good job of proving that you don't understand the things you are saying. Bosses auto attacking for 15k? Please show me a savage boss that auto attacks for 15k damage that's level 80. Go ahead, I'll wait patiently. Spoiler alert: you can't do it, because none of them auto attack that low. Even Titania/Innocence EX, the very first levels of level 80 high end content, tuned for ilvl 430, still auto attack for around 20k damage and yes, even they can break TBN in two auto attacks. It's just barely enough, but they can manage it (not that you would even remotely need to be TBN'ing their auto attacks at BiS to begin with, but I digress).

So you can claim that you're repeating what "pro tank players" say, but your lies don't hold any weight. If "pro" tank players thought that TBN was so bad then why would DRK be the second most popular tank in current savage by a significant margin? Seeing as, y'know, the only thing "special" DRK has going for it is its powerful mitigation. To answer that rhetorical question, it simply would not be so popular if that were the case. However, the reality is that it isn't the case, and TBN is in fact as powerful as I have said it is. You may not agree with that, but that's fine. Your understanding of the ability is flawed and you don't even know how much damage bosses are doing to you with auto attacks, so I don't expect you to understand enemy damage profiles and the strength/optimization of your cooldowns when you don't even understand a concept as simple as a boss auto attack, how much damage it does, and how you are capable of mitigating it.

[DRKoftheAzure]

Titan savage auto attacks for 32k damage. TBN shields you for 37k HP at BiS. A single auto attack from Titan will leave you with only 4-5k HP left on the shield, based on the variance in damage from his auto attack. The following auto attack 2-3 seconds later will break it, granting you Dark Arts. Eden Prime in E1S autos for around 24k, meaning that two autos total out to around 48k damage and, thus, a broken TBN. Hades EX autos for around the same that Eden Prime savage autos for. The fact that you claim to understand the inner workings of this job and its core ability, yet don't even understand the situations in which the ability can be properly utilized and applied, tells me that you have a woefully lacking in your overall knowledge and understanding. Frankly, you have done an extremely good job of proving that you don't understand the things you are saying. Bosses auto attacking for 15k? Please show me a savage boss that auto attacks for 15k damage that's level 80. Go ahead, I'll wait patiently. Spoiler alert: you can't do it, because none of them auto attack that low. Even Titania/Innocence EX, the very first levels of level 80 high end content, tuned for ilvl 430, still auto attack for around 20k damage and yes, even they can break TBN in two auto attacks. It's just barely enough, but they can manage it (not that you would even remotely need to be TBN'ing their auto attacks at BiS to begin with, but I digress).

So you can claim that you're repeating what "pro tank players" say, but your lies don't hold any weight. If "pro" tank players thought that TBN was so bad then why would DRK be the second most popular tank in current savage by a significant margin? Seeing as, y'know, the only thing "special" DRK has going for it is its powerful mitigation. To answer that rhetorical question, it simply would not be so popular if that were the case. However, the reality is that it isn't the case, and TBN is in fact as powerful as I have said it is. You may not agree with that, but that's fine. Your understanding of the ability is flawed and you don't even know how much damage bosses are doing to you with auto attacks, so I don't expect you to understand enemy damage profiles and the strength/optimization of your cooldowns when you don't even understand a concept as simple as a boss auto attack, how much damage it does, and how you are capable of mitigating it.

Now for the big question, have you done Alexander Ultimate and cleared it?

[ArianeEwah]

so much nonsense in so much text

Funny, you accuse me of telling lies, but you still couldn't tell me ONE... PRACTICAL... USE of TBN vs NF where TBN is CLEARLY the winner. You also twist my words to benefit yourself. Who is telling lies now?!

Oh, and god forgive me, there are AAs in savage other than E2s that hit for more than 20k - IF NO OTHER CD is active - IF NO CAST is being casted in the next 3s. Oh my lord, from those so many AAs that could break the shield... no wait... that doesn't... oh, there are only 35 AAs in the first 3 and a half minute on Titan. Now that's a WHOLE LOT of opportunities to mitigate and break the shield? No!
Your theory DOES NOT WORK IN PRACTICE! Have you ever played with DRK, and mapped out a perfect mitigation rotation where TBN will surely break? I guess you have, otherwise you wouldn't write this...

FACT: The fastest kills on E1s have DRKs using 6-7 TBN - at most! - while WAR used 7 NF. Do I really need to do maths here?

USING TBN ON CD IS NOT PRACTICAL USE!

[shao32]

TBN is the best anti-tankbusters and anti-aoe defensive skill of the game right now, it's basically busted against that kind of damage and the resuslt of the DRK preference of many players due how strong the shield is independent of his poor gameplay. yes represent a 500 oGCD waste if is used poorly aka against AA for example since a single AA doesn't break the shield and the boss just need start casting something or starting a mechanic after an AA to screw you easily so TBN is never used against AA excep the opener and depends of the combat too. against AA DRK have superior hp drain with souleater as pasive mitigation superior to WAR and GNB ones (this 2 have dedicated free self heals skills too to compensate this).

it can have situations where TBN doesn't break on dungeons due how laughable are this content right now but you can use rampart or shadow wall alone and move but is a problem of the shield being to strong not of the desing of the mechanic itself, TBN is the last unique mechanic DRK keeps for himselfl, it needs to be preserved other wise just delete DRK from the game already.

[ArianeEwah]

Truth

Basiclly this. All I've tried to say all along.

Great summary.

[Shurrikhan]

If I can't compare Clemency to TBN, then you shouldn't compare TBN with Nascent Flash

"You shouldn't compare GCDs to oGCDs?! Well then you can't compare oGCDs to oGCDs either!"

.........
......................

So you've got these things called apples. You can compare them with other apples.
You also have these things called defensive short-CD abilities. You can compare them with other defensive short-CD abilities.

A with A, B with B, so on and so forth.

We can call TBN a mystical red-haired unicorn, last of its breed. Or we can compare to the things it's meant to replace and function as similarly as possible to it.

But let's not conflate the uselessness of comparing a damage-wasting, combo-breaking GCD skill with a mitigation oGCD.

tl;dr: Lucy is likely overrating TBN and underrating NF here, but the two absolutely can be compared with little surrounding context in ways TBN and Clemency cannot.

[Nedkel]

Nothing you said there counters my arguments.
Yours and Lucy_Pyres problem/misconception here is, you actually are looking at TBN in a vacuum instead of looking at the full toolkit, or the practical use.
I've looked up some Voidwalker runs for WARs and DRKs to compare their healing here. The highest HPS DRK has 2970 HPS, the highest HPS WAR has 2588 HPS without Shake it off. But there is a catch, this particular DRK didn't break - at the very least - 7 TBN, probably even more (I guess 12 based on the buff duration / 29 TBN vs 22 EoD used [~37 possible]). That's a 3500-6000 potency loss!
If we ignore those failed breaks from the overall HPS we end up with 2520-2194 HPS on DRK. That is lower than the WARs' one. TBN may have proven as a strong mitigation tool, but in this case it caused a huge DPS loss.
This actually shows how flawed TBN is.
Eh, if you hit a non-magical fight, you acutally end up with less mitigation than the other tank jobs. You should know that.

If you actually tried to gather real numbers and try to see how big real impact does nascent flash has in actual raid you would notice that its almost completely useless there, just taking a look at the top world teams and their runs in titan savage.
The amount of heal from this particular ability is so low that it only contributes 10-15% of his Warrior total healing per second. But sure its the TBN that is flawed and nascent flash is all okay and better, LOL.
At least TBN is surpassing regular regeneration on DRK sitting at around 30% of total hps, where nascent flash is two times smaller than his own regeneration.
Same stuff if you look into voidwalker numbers, nascent flash does not contribute much.
Why this happens? Because healers are absolutely capable of healing a tank and entire team with their bloated healing kit to the point where healers are overhealing by 20-40% even in the best raid statics. They dont need a help from warriors nascent flash to keep him up and running, a shield will work just better or any other mitigation in this case which will negate a portion of damage.

[Lucy_Pyre]

USING TBN ON CD IS NOT PRACTICAL USE!

*rubs temples*

No one is saying to use TBN on cooldown. What is being said is that, use-per-use, TBN is the most powerful mitigation cooldown in the game.

Maximum mitigation potential: NF > TBN
Minimum mitigation potential: TBN > NF
Average mitigation per-use: TBN > NF

This is, once again, based upon the fact that NF's healing is based upon the damage that the Warrior deals, and Warrior only deals significant damage for around 12-15 seconds out of every 90 second cycle. If you use a singular Inner Chaos or a non-IR Fell Cleave and Upheaval in the Nascent Flash, then the healing that you gain is roughly equal to the amount of damage prevented by The Blackest Night. However, this is, once again, not always and often is not possible. There is also the point of healers, which is worth mentioning, because depending on the situation part of the Warrior's health that they are using NF to self-heal may be healed by the healers during this process, which further reduces the strength of NF. So while Nascent is stronger at its maximum potential healing value, the average healing that you will get over a fight compared to the mitigation that TBN offers, which is consistent per-use, means that TBN is overall a stronger ability. If you cannot accept that, that's on you, but everyone is entitled to their opinion and opinions are entirely capable of being wrong. Mitigation and how strong Dark Knight is at it is the primary reason that the job is so extremely popular right now.