5.0 Dark knight request: Delirium rework

[DRKoftheAzure]

To be entirely fair, TBN is ridiculously powerful in almost every piece of content in the game.

This only applies for the mitigation part the skill, and the reward for making it break is garbage to begin with, and this is assuming you are doing min.ilvl runs, which no one wants to do because it's basically level sync but with ilvl also affected. And if you run content that makes your level sync down below 70, then TBN basically becomes a useless skill that people wish they had access to as soon as they unlock the job/class (without the level jump book).

[Nedkel]

This only applies for the mitigation part the skill, and the reward for making it break is garbage to begin with, and this is assuming you are doing min.ilvl runs, which no one wants to do because it's basically level sync but with ilvl also affected. And if you run content that makes your level sync down below 70, then TBN basically becomes a useless skill that people wish they had access to as soon as they unlock the job/class (without the level jump book).

The shield is the reward itself, it cannot have a damage reward in it because it would break the DRK design.

Yes and no. TBN is powerful in a vacuum. The closer said content is to this vacuum, the better TBN gets.

As DRKoftheAzure said TBN is not free! Its mitigation is for real, but the risk of losing 500 pot/300 pot per target still exists. And as we know if you lose damage dealt, the target(s) live longer, you'll take more dmg, and need more mitigation. Then TBN would've failed its purpose.

Now, Ultimates are really close to said vacuum: TBN breaks for roughly 90% of time if used on CD. Just a little tweaking to the timing, and it will break 99% while greatly mitigating damage. All other content (and yes, even dungeons) this %-chance just drops significantly. I've seen 3-4 mobs NOT breaking the damn shield multiple times despite full duration usage, bosses sometimes don't even tickle it.
If not used on CD TBN loses value. e.g. WAR heals roughly 50k HP every 30s with Nascent Flash. TBN shields you for ~37.5k HP every 15s. In theory TBN "heals" more than NF, but because we cannot or should not use it on CD at the risk of not breaking it. Reduced to practice, this means TBN gets weaker than its equivalents. (I am aware ofc, when you overheal with NF it loses value, too.)

If you need it to survive, and it breaks, it's the best mitigation ability. Otherwise it becomes mediocre, or even a loss (sadly).
TBN is an ability that requires skill for efficent use, it still bugs me that it comes with (the highest) risk contrary to its equivalents.

Its not vacum mitigation because it makes DRK literally the easiest tank to heal in dungeons where you have a constant flow of high dmg from mobs. This contributes to healers dps and as a result you end up with faster clear even if you dont break it from time to time. On average its still contributes a good chunk of extra dps into the run.

Also warrior does not use Nascent flash all the time and he does not use it when his health is full, since it only gives you enough time to heal from 3 GCD at max you want to use it when you are using big moves. Nascent flash is a heal afterall and comes up with some drawbacks that is making it not comparable to TBN.
It does not heal you over 100% hp, you cant add to yourself the extra health like TBN does. You need to receive damage then you could heal from damage taken, but then you have a healers who are right now wasting their time to heal you, not contributing to team dps and potentially overhealing you.
Second problem is that nascent flash needs a macro or a swifty hands to use it properly, macros in this game are retarded and slow but if someone is playing on console its still better than selecting someone with dpad. Using nascent flash is pain in the ass, especially if you are starting your rotation and want to do big numbers and heal from them, its tedious and annoying to use to say the least and potentially could give you downtime when using it. There is no problem with using TBN whatsoever.

[DRKoftheAzure]

The shield is the reward itself, it cannot have a damage reward in it because it would break the DRK design.



Its not vacum mitigation because it makes DRK literally the easiest tank to heal in dungeons where you have a constant flow of high dmg from mobs. This contributes to healers dps and as a result you end up with faster clear even if you dont break it from time to time. On average its still contributes a good chunk of extra dps into the run.

If I was a new player I would agree with you on that. But as someone who got into FF14 during Heavensward through 3 main factors; 1) Dark Knight being a playable job/class, 2) the combo system FF14 has for tanks and melee DPS, 3) Au Ra's existence.

The main reason I wasn't as upset with Stormblood DRK was because of "at least I still have 2 combos in single target" mentality but I did believe a lot of DRK skills needed to be buffed(which they did).

Shadowbringers DRK basically takes all of the good changes Stormblood DRK had up until that point and throws it out the window for making it more accessible to newer players, which only succeeded in doing so because of story and level skip books on the Mogstation, but at the cost of the people who planned on maining the DRK while also subbing GNB and ended up causing those people to main GNB over any other job mostly because GNB has more than 1 combo to use.

I honestly believe that level skip books should not exist for any job/class that was introduced after A Realm Reborn, and Story skip should not have existed until New Game+ was announced and fully implemented.

[ArianeEwah]

The shield is the reward itself, it cannot have a damage reward in it because it would break the DRK design.

Its not vacum mitigation because it makes DRK literally the easiest tank to heal in dungeons where you have a constant flow of high dmg from mobs. This contributes to healers dps and as a result you end up with faster clear even if you dont break it from time to time. On average its still contributes a good chunk of extra dps into the run.

Also warrior does not use Nascent flash all the time and he does not use it when his health is full, since it only gives you enough time to heal from 3 GCD at max you want to use it when you are using big moves. Nascent flash is a heal afterall and comes up with some drawbacks that is making it not comparable to TBN.
It does not heal you over 100% hp, you cant add to yourself the extra health like TBN does. You need to receive damage then you could heal from damage taken, but then you have a healers who are right now wasting their time to heal you, not contributing to team dps and potentially overhealing you.

You are comparing apples with pears, and the apples are untouched, while the pears are getting smashed into the ground.

The shield is the reward? What kinda joke is it then? I press HoS, RI or Sheltron, and I lose nothing of value. I press TBN and risk 3k mana = 500 pot on single target, this is also a requirement just as sheltron needs 50 gauge points. If this shield doesn't break, these 3k mana are lost, and thus the incoming damage was overmitigated.

The shield itself is NOT a reward. The reward is the saved heal you would've required otherwise. If you don't end up saving any heals, or end up overhealing anyway like with any other CD - because holding said heal wouldn't give you an additional use -, it's nothing special. e.g. AST uses ED in 40s intervals. IF damage peeks every 20s, THEN TBN becomes more valueable because it saves you an ED.
Unfortunately, damage peeks rarely occur every 20s, unless you play Ultimates. I am just repeating myself here, this does rarely occur in/at savage, trails, or dungeon bosses.

What do you want to say with your NF example?
Using NF when you're full health is essentially the same as using TBN when everything around you is stunned. Makes no sense.

Also, what drawbacks on NF are you talking about? TBN saves you 37k HP, but when you would've taken 50k dmg, you still take 13k dmg. With NF you just heal those 50k. Why would you use any heals for that? In those situations it's DRK who will need a heal sooner than the WAR. Your comparison is contradictory. The only benefit TBN has over NF is its short CD.
IF you cannot make use of its short CD, it loses its benefit! That's all I'm saying! If you don't need it to survive, or you don't save your healers a GCD heal - neither in the short run nor long run - it comes down to its short CD.

Last, but not least: I never said TBN is generally bad in dungeons. It just sux vs dungeon bosses or small trash pulls/dying trash.
Myself and every other person I know who touched DRK in expert have experienced, how good TBN is in mass pulls, and just how bad it is vs bosses. It occasionally doesn't break vs boss' tank busters 'cause e.g. even a sacred soil is enough to overmitigate, or you are just freaking overgeared. This is imho NOT good design.

[Nedkel]

If I was a new player I would agree with you on that. But as someone who got into FF14 during Heavensward through 3 main factors; 1) Dark Knight being a playable job/class, 2) the combo system FF14 has for tanks and melee DPS, 3) Au Ra's existence.

The main reason I wasn't as upset with Stormblood DRK was because of "at least I still have 2 combos in single target" mentality but I did believe a lot of DRK skills needed to be buffed(which they did).
Shadowbringers DRK basically takes all of the good changes Stormblood DRK had up until that point and throws it out the window for making it more accessible to newer players, which only succeeded in doing so because of story and level skip books on the Mogstation, but at the cost of the people who planned on maining the DRK while also subbing GNB and ended up causing those people to main GNB over any other job mostly because GNB has more than 1 combo to use.
I honestly believe that level skip books should not exist for any job/class that was introduced after A Realm Reborn, and Story skip should not have existed until New Game+ was announced and fully implemented.

If you dont like current DRK you have the right to not like it, however it does not change the fact it is second the most played tank right now after 8 months into expansion.
The combo we had in Stormblood was almost never used, maybe in few instances just to build up enmity and then go out from tank stance, but it was rare anyway due to DRK who almost never been played as a MT it was always the war.
GNB is more fun to play than stormblood DRK, he has more skills to utilize and use in offensive manner. In stoormblood for the majority of expansion DRK had 2 skills completely useless, all he did was 1-2-3 with DA sometimes and had 3 offensive oGCD to weave in from time to time. It was fast, but not overly complicated and more simple than GNB right now, who has way more skills and you use them more often than stormblood drk ever had a chance.
Stormblood DRK was scrapped for a reason, majority complained about DRK being the weakest of tanks, requiring too much attention and engagement for so little rewards, and so here we are right now with current DRK. It was not possible to "upgrade" old DRK because the job would have to be slowed down in order to put more interesting skills into the kit, it was not possible to give anything new for SB DRK since he already had so fast gameplay and so annoying doubleweaving which was hard to execute with GCD sitting at around 2.2-2.3 sec.
Old DRK had to go, and if you would bring heavensward DRK today he would be outdated and outperformed by any other tank, thats it.

You are comparing apples with pears, and the apples are untouched, while the pears are getting smashed into the ground.
The shield is the reward? What kinda joke is it then? I press HoS, RI or Sheltron, and I lose nothing of value. I press TBN and risk 3k mana = 500 pot on single target, this is also a requirement just as sheltron needs 50 gauge points. If this shield doesn't break, these 3k mana are lost, and thus the incoming damage was overmitigated.
The shield itself is NOT a reward. The reward is the saved heal you would've required otherwise. If you don't end up saving any heals, or end up overhealing anyway like with any other CD - because holding said heal wouldn't give you an additional use -, it's nothing special. e.g. AST uses ED in 40s intervals. IF damage peeks every 20s, THEN TBN becomes more valueable because it saves you an ED.
Unfortunately, damage peeks rarely occur every 20s, unless you play Ultimates. I am just repeating myself here, this does rarely occur in/at savage, trails, or dungeon bosses.

When you press sheltron/rampart/hos/anything else you are still receiving 70-80% of the damage you would receive without it. That means healer still has to heal you.
Mathematically you have to receive equivalent of 125% of your max HP in damage in order for 20% mitigation to mitigate as much damage as TBN could mitigate out of the bat without costing your healer time, this is how powerful is 25% MAX HP shield over 20% mitigation. On top of that DRK also has an access to many different mitigations. DRK is the king here like it or not lol.

What do you want to say with your NF example?
Using NF when you're full health is essentially the same as using TBN when everything around you is stunned. Makes no sense.
Also, what drawbacks on NF are you talking about? TBN saves you 37k HP, but when you would've taken 50k dmg, you still take 13k dmg. With NF you just heal those 50k. Why would you use any heals for that? In those situations it's DRK who will need a heal sooner than the WAR. Your comparison is contradictory. The only benefit TBN has over NF is its short CD.
IF you cannot make use of its short CD, it loses its benefit! That's all I'm saying! If you don't need it to survive, or you don't save your healers a GCD heal - neither in the short run nor long run - it comes down to its short CD.
Last, but not least: I never said TBN is generally bad in dungeons. It just sux vs dungeon bosses or small trash pulls/dying trash.
Myself and every other person I know who touched DRK in expert have experienced, how good TBN is in mass pulls, and just how bad it is vs bosses. It occasionally doesn't break vs boss' tank busters 'cause e.g. even a sacred soil is enough to overmitigate, or you are just freaking overgeared. This is imho NOT good design.

But you dont use nascent flash all the time, dont you or you do? You shouldnt because it heals your from your damage done, which is the highest with infuriate boosted skills or in IR. Using nascent flash when using standard combo is a waste.
And how nascent flash is more useful on dungeon bosses tell me, if damage received from their tank busters is not something that would make a difference to your healer? And how your healer knows you are going to heal yourself out with nascent flash? He wont know he will still cast a healing spell anyway, no matter if you used mitigation or did not and want heal yourself with nascent flash, they cant read your intentions especially in random dungs.
On DRK i dont have a problem breaking TBN on bosses and i have 470 gear with weapon as exception and 1 ring, just use TBN alone. Just because it does not break in certain situation does not mean it is bad design lol, look at the job as a whole and not on the separate parts of its kit, DRK has other tools to mitigate those smaller damages, tbn is not his only mitigation skill to mind you.

[Shurrikhan]

If you dont like current DRK you have the right to not like it, however it does not change the fact it is second the most played tank right now after 8 months into expansion.

During its overpowered heyday, Monk was also decently well played despite constant gameplay complaints. Player count alone does not indicate that a toolkit is particularly enjoyable.

How do you think that player count would react to a mitigation-balancing change, such as a 25-second CD on TBN?

[Falar]

During its overpowered heyday, Monk was also decently well played despite constant gameplay complaints. Player count alone does not indicate that a toolkit is particularly enjoyable.

How do you think that player count would react to a mitigation-balancing change, such as a 25-second CD on TBN?

I would pay that price for some other fixes.

[Shurrikhan]

I would pay that price for some other fixes.

Ahh, but our gameplay is fine, remember? That's why we have so many players... Surely DRK, of all jobs, wouldn't need anything to compensate for TBN. It's not like a quarter of all DRKs play DRK just for TBN, after all.

.....

[Kabooa]

During its overpowered heyday, Monk was also decently well played despite constant gameplay complaints. Player count alone does not indicate that a toolkit is particularly enjoyable.

How do you think that player count would react to a mitigation-balancing change, such as a 25-second CD on TBN?

I'd expect Dark Mind to change to compensate tbh. TBN gets to be so strong because Dark Mind doesn't work on half damage, compared to Thrill, Camoflauge, and passive block.

Getting a 66% cooldown increase for, I don't know, nothing or 200 DPS is a raw deal imo.

[ArianeEwah]

When you press sheltron/rampart/hos/anything [...]

Nothing you said there counters my arguments.
Yours and Lucy_Pyres problem/misconception here is, you actually are looking at TBN in a vacuum instead of looking at the full toolkit, or the practical use.

I've looked up some Voidwalker runs for WARs and DRKs to compare their healing here. The highest HPS DRK has 2970 HPS, the highest HPS WAR has 2588 HPS without Shake it off. But there is a catch, this particular DRK didn't break - at the very least - 7 TBN, probably even more (I guess 12 based on the buff duration / 29 TBN vs 22 EoD used [~37 possible]). That's a 3500-6000 potency loss!
If we ignore those failed breaks from the overall HPS we end up with 2520-2194 HPS on DRK. That is lower than the WARs' one. TBN may have proven as a strong mitigation tool, but in this case it caused a huge DPS loss.
This actually shows how flawed TBN is.

On top of that DRK also has an access to many different mitigations.

Eh, if you hit a non-magical fight, you acutally end up with less mitigation than the other tank jobs. You should know that.

But you dont use nascent flash all the time, dont you or you do? [...]

If you use it every ~30s you'll have the highest HPS possible, ideally every single one paired with Upheaval.
If your healer heals you directly after a hit and don't let the tank handle it, it's on the healer not trusting the tank. But why would you waste GCD heals? Or are you concerned about oGCD heals, too? Why tho?
Explain your problem here! In every single one of your posts you state that healers lose DPS uptime by healing the tank. You speak of the worst possible pug situtations, and those are irrelevant to actual balance, nor can we treat them as the norm.
Just like the Benediction into Superbolide situtations. They happen, so is Superbolide a sh*tty skill because of this? No, ofc not!

TBN is a strong mitigation tool, but it's still a flawed tool!
It's fine in dungeon pulls and ultimates, maybe even trails and savage on minimum item level. But more often than not, we end up asking ourselves if we should actually use it instead of "just do it". Yet, for good reasons.

snip

Refer to the practical Voidwalker run above, case closed.