Mediocrity should NOT be the standard for players in any content.

[xxvaynxx]

stuff.

Yeah nobody wants to do hard content with no reward. Heck even easy content.
Imagine beating ultimate and all you got was a congratulations.

[Valic]

Yeah nobody wants to do hard content with no reward. Heck even easy content.
Imagine beating ultimate and all you got was a congratulations.

No where in that post am I saying it needs to be hard. I also didn't say no reward either. I also didn't even reference EX/savage content, let alone ultimate. You're not reading the post at all.

[3c-33]

I'm not sure what you mean by more advanced concepts of tanking or the aggro table. I thought the hall of novice quests were sufficient for the basics. And, especially in Shadowbringers, there really isn't much more advanced form of tanking unless you mean optimizing the rotation of your particular job. In which case, as I said, reading the tool tips should help for the standard duties and, for high end duties, you have other players to help, or should have other players anyway.

There is more to tanking than what the hall of novice teaches you and you could in fact argue that the hall of novice teaches you things that you shouldn't be practicing. It tells you that you SHOULDNT pull big groups of mobs and that you should only pull them one at a time, and it also tells you that once you establish enmity on all the mobs, you should start doing your 123 combos instead of continuing to aoe the group.

It also fails to tell you that this -



is the most useful tool you have when tanking that lets you see whether or not all mobs you've aggro'd are actually attacking you or not. say you just entered a dungeon but forgot to put tank stance on, so you pull the big group and suddenly mobs are pulling away from you and attacking other people. If you're a good tank who watches this list you will notice it immediately because those red dots will start turning yellow and green. It also doesn't tell you about this -



That being, the list in the top left that shows what the target is aggro'd to. Granted it doesn't matter as much now with the easy enmity changes, but still. Another pseudo-important thing that I never knew until someone told me about it.

That aside, while the game could totally be better about teaching you those kind of things, I don't think it will make any difference with the kind of people this thread is directed at. Like look at it for moment, this is a modern mmo with a big focus on the social aspect of it. Which means that anyone coming into this game is going to know there's plenty of outside resources to help you with the game. there's youtube videos, discord servers, forum/reddit posts, etc, and it's all one google search away. Those clueless "I Don't want to try" players are well aware those resources exist but choose not to use them the same way they choose not to try to improve or try. No amount of forced tutorials or handholding in the game is going to change that. They're going to not bother reading or paying attention to the text given to them and then nothing will change.

Take it from me who only started playing about a year ago and had never played an mmo before. It took me a long time to get fully comfortable with all the UI and general player etiquette and game mechanics and stuff. But I didn't need a bunch of handholding from the game to tell me that because I knew I could just look things up for whatever I wanted to know, or even ask other friends/people. I mean even mentors + the novice network exist for this reason. Anyone who ignores this stuff is not going to change because the game added some forced tutorials so that idea feels ultimately pointless to me


Regardless of that, this is still one of the best game communities I've ever interacted with and I'm very thankful for it. I've played this one multiplayer game for 4k+ hours over the course of 7 years and I can assure you it's significantly worse than this. Not only is that game full of horribly toxic players, but also full of people that are so clueless as to what's going on that it ruins the experience for everyone. I'm talking like, imagine you enter a dungeon and the tank doesn't have his stance on and doesn't know he's a tank and both of your dps are meandering around the dungeon not doing anything because they don't even understand they're supposed to be killing the mobs and following the group. The fact I have a 100% guaranteed chance of entering a dungeon and having everyone in my party perform their given role, no matter how poorly, is an absolute miracle to me. I'll take a cure 1-only white mage any day of the week over a level 80 conjurer that meanders aimlessly around the dungeon without even following the group because that's sure as hell what I went through for 90% of my playtime in the aforementioned game I spent far too long in.

While it would be great if everyone was on the same page and all healers tried to dps and all black mages used their fire spells and so on, it's not like that and as long as it doesn't actively impede on my ability to complete something, I don't really care. I'd rather spend an extra 5 minutes in a dungeon because of an ice mage or pure healer than I would be constantly frustrated at the inability to complete what should be considered the bare minimum. At the end of the day, majority of people are trying to complete the same content you are, no matter how bad or clueless or handicapped they may be otherwise.

This game's community isn't perfect but it's far above what I've previously experienced and as I've said before, threads like this make it out to be a far bigger problem than it actually is. Also coming from the person who usually hates the kind of arguments I'm making right now. While I do agree to some extent with all of what's being said here, I just don't think it's the biggest issue in general here. Like I've also said before, I think the game has some issues with job progression and level sync and lack of job complexity, that's pretty different from saying the community itself is the problem.

tl;dr again threads like this just seem like pointless echo chambers and I ultimately don't see where discussing all of this is supposed to take us because all of what's been said here has likely been said a million times before in other threads and complaining about the like 5% of people who play this game that suck to play with is not going to make that tiny group of people go away. I genuinely believe most people who play this game try to respect each other's time because this is a co-op game and we all want the same thing in the end and we'd rather get along than fight eachother because the tank is going slow or the dps isn't playing optimally or whatever but idk that's just me!!

[Ryaz]

Yeah nobody wants to do hard content with no reward. Heck even easy content.
Imagine beating ultimate and all you got was a congratulations.

Of course they won't. We live in a society where a sense of accomplishment is meaningless. It's all about "what's in it for me and how can I use it to show people how much better I am than they are?"

@3c-33: Sadly, the internet has devolved into one big echo chamber. Real debate is slowly being lost. It's why I try to stay out if most things like this. I'll give an opinion and move on.

[SturmChurro]

I for one won't do something without a meaningful carrot on a stick. For no other reason than I WANT IT. I get a sense of accomplishment from collecting things, or finishing "that one look" I was going for.

[Valic]

*snip*

I'm saddened both our posts give the effort to explain things but don't bother being read. Meanwhile someone generically states "I want things" and they get +'d despite it having nothing to do with anything posted.

[Gemina]

Mediocrity should NOT be the standard for players in any content....

The standard is going to be the lowest common denominator, which I would agree would be a big problem if I encountered this "rise" in players who don't give a damn. I know we all have different experiences, and mine reflect that there are more people here on the forums complaining about these kind of players than there actually are. Not saying they are not out there, or that I have not encountered them. It's just that they are few and far between, and never worth the energy.

How does this affect me? I don't care about others.

Indeed. Take two, three, maybe even a half dozen steps back and ask yourself this again. You can't control other players. You're not a dev, so you can't change the design of the game. You can however control how things you perceive to be negative affect you, and how you respond to it. You sound burned out more than anything.

You're exaggerating a bit don'tcha think?

Yes, you are. While many of the things you've pointed out do exist, people tend to add salt to their gripes making these issues seem much bigger than they actually are. It's one thing to say, "I have a problem with this." and another to say, "This is a problem with the game." When using the latter, it is best to construct a post based on facts, not a wall of opinions, and echoing the woes of others. It's not necessarily that players think things are fine, and are just walking away. Some simply don't want to hear it, or don't have anything to contribute. Especially if the post focuses on negative bashing of the game instead of constructive criticism and positive suggestion. Most of us still love the game dude, and we all have issues with it.

K, ur dumb.

You're not dumb. However, I think you're a bit too focused on what everyone else is doing and joining the FFXIV roast. You might want to toss on some earmuffs, and just focus in on what you enjoy about the game.

TL;DR: SE doesn't want us to "get gud". There's no need to anymore ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I rest my case.

[xxvaynxx]

Of course they won't. We live in a society where a sense of accomplishment is meaningless. It's all about "what's in it for me and how can I use it to show people how much better I am than they are?"

@3c-33: Sadly, the internet has devolved into one big echo chamber. Real debate is slowly being lost. It's why I try to stay out if most things like this. I'll give an opinion and move on.

Look at what SturmChurro said.
But also, with that logic. Would you work a 9-5 job with no pay? Would you plant a large amount of seeds in a football sized yard for it to never grow?
You accomplished something, you worked for 8 hours and was productive. Wouldn't you want something for all your hard work? No? you want to work for free? man.

[SturmChurro]

Look at what SturmChurro said.
But also, with that logic. Would you work a 9-5 job with no pay? Would you plant a large amount of seeds in a football sized yard for it to never grow?
You accomplished something, you worked for 8 hours and was productive. Wouldn't you want something for all your hard work? No? you want to work for free? man.

Well, some people do get a sense of accomplishment from going back and completing content for no reward, the reward is the experience itself. You are opening yourself to a counter-argument. Different people like different things, I am just impulsive. A good reward is always something to keep people motivated though.

[xxvaynxx]

Well, some people do get a sense of accomplishment from going back and completing content for no reward, the reward is the experience itself. You are opening yourself to a counter-argument. Different people like different things, I am just impulsive. A good reward is always something to keep people motivated though.

People do said old content for the reward.
The old content people go back and do is ult which is still an accomplishment to clear since it will and always be sync'd and primals but people unsync that anyway.
Nobody is gonna go back and sync T13 and NOW Alex when you can just do the ultimate version.

More often than not though people are not gonna do old stuff if they're not gonna get something out of it to show off.

Off the top of my head the only thing people might do for old content with no reward is probably like...solo'ing old raids. But its usually as a tank or sch so it isn't really that impressive imo anyway.